The Waffen-SS live ammo training...

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The Waffen-SS live ammo training...

#1

Post by Christoph Awender » 04 Oct 2005, 09:57

Hello

We all know that there is the stupid (sorry) myth that Waffen-SS soldiers did this mysterious "live ammo training" shooting at each other which made them harder and better like any other soldier on earth. We also know that this is absolute nonsense and nobody was able to bring just the faintest proof for this claim.

Of course I wondered if there is something that started this story. Maybe someone who saw training manuals missinterpreted (misstranslated) or wanted to missunderstand some other training methods.
In this document for example they use "lebende Ziele" (living targets) for practicing the fast shot in close combat. Someone who does not know the additional regulations and paragraphs could think that they really shot at each other.

The background of this marked practice is that the training NCO orders "swing targets" or "living targets" to show up surprisingly and then he takes the time how long the soldier needs to fire with his stopwatch.
Nevertheless this training is done with blank ammo (training rounds). The same practice is done with live rounds but on "swing targets".
What do you think could this be one of the reasons of this stupid myth?
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Warager
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#2

Post by Warager » 05 Oct 2005, 00:35

What do you think could this be one of the reasons of this stupid myth?
Yes and also things like this from a book called Leibstandarte ss

"The blood was the only thing that made different the training from the battle"
also
"Heydrich give an order that the SS men where to train themselves with live ammo against others"
also
"The candidate for officers should put a granade on their helments until it explode"
and
"the SS volunteer have to make a trench because after some time tanks where going to pass over him"

stupid things like those make people think that the wss soldiers where some kind of supermen i must admit at the beggining i belived that nonsense but after reading other books i realized that a lot of things where just exagerations
thats why i created this tread to show that WSS training has nothing espectacular it shows how the WSS soldiers made their shooting training
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=86529


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Benny C.
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#3

Post by Benny C. » 05 Oct 2005, 01:51

The following is an extract from a speech by Heinrich Himmler talking about the SS.

Those recruits were trained with live ammunition from the very first day, since we never knew whether the English were coming. After 8 weeks, they were already considerably better, and now they have become magnificently good divisions. At the moment, we have been ordered to form the 16th and 17th Divisions by January. We are already mutually occupied with this hard work. The 4th Tank Corps will be formed from the SS Tank Division "Hohenstaufen" (9th Div.), and a new division is to be formed, to be called the SS Tank Grenadier Division "Reichsführer SS". It will be formed from the Brigade "Reichsführer SS" which, we hope, has succeeded in getting out of Corsica today with the last man;
I could list at least a dozen websites and books that claim that the SS trained with live ammunition.
I'm not saying that you're wrong but it seems to me to be a case of opposite opinions.

Do you have anything to prove that the SS did not use live ammo in training?
The Verfugungstruppe trained as if it was a part of the Wehrmacht. Men in it trained with live ammunition in full military manoeuvres.
This is from http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/waffen-ss.htm
The training was considered tougher than that of the Army's, since Waffen-SS training involved the use of live ammunition.
This is from http://www.waffen-ss.com/history/
Bad Toelz was considered the premier officers' training school in World War II and in addition to a thorough training program that featured live ammunition in most field exercises,
This is from http://www.library.flawlesslogic.com

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#4

Post by JonS » 05 Oct 2005, 02:23

Most (all?) armies use/d live ammo in field training. For example, in the British and CW armies the troops practiced following barrages, to give them an idea of how close they could be, and the importance of following up very closely. Battle Drill training also involved the extensive use of live ammo.

Both practices resulted in cas.

The use of live ammo in training is nothing special.

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#5

Post by JonS » 05 Oct 2005, 02:26

Benny C. wrote:I could list at least a dozen websites and books that claim that the SS trained with live ammunition. Do you have anything to prove that the SS did not use live ammo in training?
To clarify: you've got the wrong end of the stick. No one is saying that the SS didn't use live ammo. Thinking people are saying that there is nothing intrinsically unusual about that, since everyone else did it too.

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#6

Post by Benny C. » 05 Oct 2005, 02:55

Sorry JonS.
I got the impression that he was saying that the SS did not use live ammo in training.
Perhaps Christoph can clarify what he means.

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#7

Post by JonS » 05 Oct 2005, 02:58

Since he said, inter alia, "The same practice is done with live rounds ...", what clarification would you like?

Perhaps you could clarify what your position is - do you think that SS trg was anything special? If so, what are you basing this on?

Cheers
Jon

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Benny C.
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#8

Post by Benny C. » 05 Oct 2005, 03:06

I think the Waffen SS training was good but probably not much better than that of the Heer. The only reason I posted above was cause I thought Christoph was saying that they never used live ammo but I must have picked him up wrong.

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#9

Post by Christoph Awender » 05 Oct 2005, 08:41

I never said that they did not use live ammo. When you read the manual above it says "scharfer Schuss" in the second practice which means live ammo. But the first practice on living targets is with exercise ammo and not with live ammo.

How often practice shooting was done with normal live ammo instead of small calibre because of the bad ammo supply situation is another topic.

BennyC I would not consider Himmler as objective observer of the training of a Waffen-SS formation.

Warager who is the author of this book?

The problem is that some people think that they shot at each other with live ammo!

\Christoph

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Daniel Laurent
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#10

Post by Daniel Laurent » 05 Oct 2005, 10:49

The practice of using live ammunitions during troops training is a time old one and is still valid nowadays.

I have few quite recent photos, off topic here, of French paratroopers crawling under a net of barbed wires while machine guns are shooting, not at them, but slightly *above* them. As long as they really crawl and don't try to stand up, no problem, except for the recruit's nerves, but that's the whole target of such exercises.

The sole difference I could find when searching a bit about the Waffen SS training is the ideological training they got, at least during the first years of the war. For example, the first French Waffen SS, the Sturmbridage Frankreich, got the full SS training, including ideological, during Autumn 1943, approx. 2,500 men. But the one who joined in 1945 to create the Division Charlemagne, all in all 7,500, didn't got it, no time.

But even there, still nothing *really* special. All special forces all over the world got also some kind of ideological training.

However, still some mentions of "special" training are found:

A quote from http://www.division-charlemagne.com concerning officers and NCO's training:
"L'entraînement y est encore plus sévère le rottenführer Henri Samson dira même " Cela a été plus que dur : féroce", attaque de chars (dont certains finissent écrasés sous les chenilles), entraînement à balles réelles, pratique de sport intensif et un parcours du combattant pratiquement inimaginable à notre époque. Il y aussi la formation idéologique avec des cours dans des lieux qui respirent le mystique"

Translation (With all usual reservations :oops: )
"Training is even more tough there. Rottenführer Henri Samson will even say: "It was more than tough: Ferocious" Panzer attacks (Some will be killed under the tanks), live ammunition training, intensive sports practice and a "parcours du combattant" (Some kind of running practice with a lot of miscelaneous obstacles) the nobody could imagine nowadays. There is also the ideological training with courses in places that sounds very mystical".

But however, live ammunitions training doesn't mean shooting at each other.
Concerning Panzer attacks, well, not new also: How to manage to be ran over by a Panzer without getting crushed, better to know it before reaching the front line...

Regards
Daniel

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#11

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 05 Oct 2005, 12:03

I'd like to point out that by 1944 many W-SS units in training suffered from a severe lack of arms and ammunition.

It seems to me that this "live ammo" thread is part of the "better W-SS training" myth.

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#12

Post by Epaminondas » 05 Oct 2005, 15:34

The driving of tanks over the infantry was actully german military wide wasn't it?

I'm sure I've read about it in Soldat or another memior...

---

Nothing special for the SS anyways; good training to learn how to deal with tank shock; and great motivation to learn how to dig fast.

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Re: The Waffen-SS live ammo training...

#13

Post by Mr Holmes » 18 Oct 2005, 13:30

Christoph Awender wrote: What do you think could this be one of the reasons of this stupid myth?
Hi Christoph,

Sorry to bump up this thread, but in furtherance to the above quote, I am currently reading Tim Ripley's, The Waffen-SS At War: Hitler's Praetorian 1925-1945, Zenith Press, (ISBN 0-7603-2068-3), and on p. 209, he has this to write of 12. SS Hitlerjugend's training in 1944:
The Hitlerjugend Division received the highest priority for men and equipment. Its cadre of Leibstandarte instructors was soon whipping the young 17- and 18- year-olds of the division into shape. Lack of time meant the division concentrated on battlefield skills, not parade drills. Tactical exercises with live ammunition were the norm. Panzer crews were sent to tank factories in Germany to help build the vehicles they would soon drive into battle.
*

Reading this passage (especially the bold text... the rest has been added for context), had I not read this thread previously, I am certain I would have come away with the feeling that live fire exercises, on each other, were a reality. Furthermore, I am sure, that those who may have picked up such a book for the first time, would come away with that feeling too. At least, I would think, that for the general populace, reading such passages would leave such an indellible mark in their minds and that this is how this legend is perpetuated.

However, within the realm of academia, the issue becomes murkier. Could there be a misinterpretation of the dicument you have cited? Have they had such access to this document? And, of course (which is obviously at the crux of your question), the two-fold question arises: How and why has this myth (whether through purposeful misleading or through usage of bad language) arisen? Was there a gloatful W-SS veteran who came up with such a legend?



* bold mine

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#14

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 18 Oct 2005, 14:25

Tim Ripley's synopsis doesn't seem particuarly accurate to me. Here's what I have on the training of the 12th SS division:

July 1943: Division raised Beverloo, Belgium from cadre of 1,000 LSSAH men plus 10,000 teenagers (many of them not yet 17) from Hitler Youth leadership schools. Division HQ based at at Lichterfelde Kaserne in Berlin, along with the I SS-Panzerkorps. Despite a lack of uniforms, Fritz Witt and other divisional officers quickly cultivate a strong esprit de corps among the trainees.

Oct 1943: Division receives Sturmgeschütz battalion and a medical company from the 1st SS-Panzer Division. The division's panzer strength is extremely weak - four Mark IV tanks and four Panthers - all shipped back from the Eastern front against OKH orders! Division also suffers from a lack of motorized transport vehicles. Recently confiscated Italian vehicles are given to the division (the Italians having quit the Axis in Sept 1943) as a stopgap measure, but the lack of spare parts causes many of the vehicles to break down.

Jan 1944: Unit suffers fromn shortages of equipment - e.g. armored strength is only 40 tanks. Panzer arm transferred to Hasselt, Belgium. During the spring (?) Generaloberst Guderian and Field Marshall von Rundstedt visit the troops and watch training exercizes. The German senior leadership continue to add innovations to the training process. Guderian suggests rifle-range practice be replaced with "live-fire" exercizes. Divisional CO Witt requires all company commanders to communicate with the parents of their recruits. Training officers place special emphasis on effective camouflaging techniques and radio security.

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LIVE AMMUNITION

#15

Post by logibear64 » 19 Oct 2005, 01:47

The only real way to resolve the controversy is to trace the myth to the original source. Christof has identified a possible new angle on how it started. Perhaps its origin is indeed the result of a misinterpretation of a training manual or vet interview. My hunch is he is right. Most armies today use live ammuniton in certain instances as JonS has pointed out in "battle drill." In the American army these were tightly controlled training events but nevertheless, serious injury and death still occurred from time to time.
However, myths die hard!
Phil

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