Germania or New Berlin/Albert Speer topic.

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
Post Reply
Ezboard

Germania or New Berlin/Albert Speer topic.

#1

Post by Ezboard » 30 Sep 2002, 19:26

Daniel Feltmate
Veteran Member

Posts: 331
(1/29/02 12:39:49 am)
Germania or New Berlin/Albert Speer topic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was there to be a new city constructed called Germania? Or was this just to be a Berlin that went under massive changes? I found some really nice designs from Albert Speer. Can anyone give me some information on these?

Image


Image


what was this supposed to be?

Image


Edited by: Daniel Feltmate at: 1/29/02 12:40:46 am

Daniel Feltmate
Veteran Member

Posts: 332
(1/29/02 12:42:28 am)
Re: Germania or New Berlin/Albert Speer topic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Image

so, can someone exlpain the Germania or is it Berlin with new name????

pdhinkle
Veteran Member

Posts: 771
(1/29/02 1:43:00 am)
Germania or New Berlin/Albert Speer topic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan :: Your last picture looks like the rally field in Nuremburg.

Daniel Feltmate
Veteran Member

Posts: 334
(1/29/02 2:38:42 am)
Re: Germania or New Berlin/Albert Speer topic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, it is. It just looks cool so I thought i would throw it in there.

Thorfinn
Member

Posts: 72
(1/29/02 3:16:38 am)
Albert Speer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Albert Speer was the best architect this world has ever seen. Adolf Hitler was also good, but Speer was amazing. Those pictures reflect part of the plans for Berlin that unfortunately never came to be. The Speer/Hitler designed Große Halle was to be the largest building in the world, with at least a 250m high dome, and a diameter seven times that of Michelangelo's dome for St Peter's. Berlin was to be redesigned and possibly renamed Germania. Speer was a superb architect, but in many cases he translated Hitler's plans. For example, the Große Halle was translated from sketches done by Hitler years before he and the party came to power. Also, Hitler did design some of the buildings by himself.


One of Hitler's very early sketches for the Große Halle.


The Speer design with Brandenburg Gate on the lower left.


The inside of the Große Halle.

Speer's grandest designs for the Capital of Europe never came to be, and the designs of his that were built, were largely destroyed by the vengeful Allies.


The huge Neo-Classicist dome of the Große Halle was copied, albeit in glass, by architect Norman Foster in 1997 for the new Reichstag.

Daniel Feltmate
Veteran Member

Posts: 338
(1/29/02 3:19:03 am)
Re: Albert Speer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That looks like alot of people, was it to be used for mass meetings?

Thorfinn
Member

Posts: 73
(1/29/02 3:34:23 am)
Große Halle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That looks like alot of people, was it to be used for mass meetings?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes. They wanted the Große Halle to be able to sit one hundred eighty thousand people. It was to be a gigantic indoor arena for speeches and rallies. It would have cost about one billion.

"If the Finance Minister could realize what a source of income to the state my buildings will be in fifty years! Remember what happened with Ludwig II. Everyone said he was mad because of the cost of his palaces. But today? Most tourists go to upper Bavaria solely to see them. The entrance fees alone have long since paid for the building costs. Don't you agree? The whole world will come to Berlin to see our buildings. All we need to do is tell the Americans how much the Great Hall cost. Maybe we'll exaggerate a bit and say a billion and a half instead of a billion. Then they'll be wild to see the most expensive building in the world."

Adolf Hitler

(Quoted in Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich", Chapter 10.)

Timowr
Veteran Member

Posts: 311
(1/29/02 3:35:54 am)
Re: Albert Speer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Thorfinn,

You just did it. I had such a laugh over your posting that I wet my pants. Your hilarious opinion is understandable from your Nazi point of view, but still you should know better.

Speer the best Architect the world ever saw? Oh boy, that is amazing. But seriously. What is so good about him? The credits for his copy-cat work goes to the great masters from the Roman empire and the rennaissance. There is nothing original in his designs, it's all grotesque snatching of the ideas of men from the past. He just enlarged everything out of proportion. Something we see with most megalomane rulers and their architects. See the Romenian capitol for a more recent example.

An architect who is not original in his designs can never be great. For a truely original and great architect from the first half of the century: have a look at the work of Berlage.

Dream on Nordic warrior.

Timo

Benoit Douville
Veteran Member

Posts: 223
(1/29/02 3:47:23 am)
Re: Albert Speer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thorfinn,

You said " Those pictures reflect part of the plans for Berlin that unfortunately never came to be"

Do you really mean that???

Best Regards

Daniel Feltmate
Veteran Member

Posts: 339
(1/29/02 4:54:04 am)
Re: Albert Speer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, in a sense, it is too bad the buildings never could of been built.

That may sound funny, but yea gotta admit Berlin would of been a beatiful city (whether it was re-done under the national Socialist regime or not)



Erb, I hope you know what I am trying to get at. Nice buildings, Berlin could of been beatiful.

Perhaps if Patton had gotten there first???

heh heh heh.

Thorfinn
Member

Posts: 77
(1/29/02 6:11:59 am)
Speer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You just did it. I had such a laugh over your posting that I wet my pants...Speer the best Architect the world ever saw? Oh boy, that is amazing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You are intitled to your own view, but I, as well as many other architects, think that Albert Speer was the greatest, and some others think that he was at least among the top three or so greatest architects. If he was not so great, why did Norman Foster use Speer's design for the dome of the Große Halle as a basis for the dome of the new Reichstag?

You should overlook your ideology for once. Just because someone was involved with the Third Reich does not discount their greatness. Like nearly everything else that has to do with the Third Reich, Speer's genius was burried, or at least attempted to be discredited, and then hidden for quite a long time. Today, though, people are not afraid to be called names for admiring the works of Speer.

How can you discredit his design of the Nuremberg parade grounds that are seen in Leni Riefenstahl's masterpiece dokumentarfilm, Triumph des Willens? I suppose that you think that Leni Riefenstahl was not great either?

I feel that you only like Hendrik Petrus Berlage because he is from Amsterdam. He was good, but not great, even though he did alot for the Dutch; he could never compare to Speer. The thing that hurt him the most was his inspiration from the works of Frank Lloyd Wright. The only people that I know that think of Berlage as great are the Dutch. It is fine that you like your own, but sometimes I think that schools in the Netherlands teach that he was the only architect to ever live.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You said " Those pictures reflect part of the plans for Berlin that unfortunately never came to be"

Do you really mean that???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes. I think that Berlin would be very beautiful if those buildings were constructed.

panzer william
New Member
Posts: 8
(1/29/02 6:40:20 am)
Triumph des Willens
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thorfinn,you mentioned the film Triumph des Willens,it's the film I have been looking for for 10 years,after I saw some scenes of this film in another documentory.I believe it's the most beautiful film in the world.It shows how disciplined army and people can create the most exciting ,splendid scenes.
I live in Canada,is there anyway to buy this film(English or German version) inside or outside Canada?

Thorfinn
Member

Posts: 79
(1/29/02 7:24:37 am)
Triumph des Willens
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I live in Canada,is there anyway to buy this film(English or German version) inside or outside Canada?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes. It is the best film ever. The film covers the events of the Sixth Nuremburg Party Congress in 1934. The intention was to document the early days of the NSDAP, so as future generations could look back and see how the Third Reich began. It turned out to be the best documentary ever created, and it still is to this day. Leni Riefenstahl is still alive today, even though her life has been largely harmed, and discredited by people that are anti-Third Reich. I also recommend the Olympia filme, Fest der Völker (Teil I), and Fest der Schönheit (Teil II).

You should be able to purchase Triumph des Willens/Triumph of the Will from the American site of http://www.amazon.com.

You can get it on tape, or DVD. They will be in German with English subtitles that can be removed on the DVDs.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 09-0850266

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 09-0850266

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 09-0850266

Triumph des Willens shows the world as it should be; patriotism, order, art, beauty, and love.

Timowr
Veteran Member

Posts: 313
(1/29/02 7:56:48 am)
Re: Triumph des Willens
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You are intitled to your own view, but I, as well as many other architects, think that Albert Speer was the greatest, and some others think that he was at least among the top three or so greatest architects."

...You and other architects? So you're an architect? Still no proof that he was the greatest, certainly not of all times.

"If he was not so great, why did Norman Foster use Speer's design for the dome of the Große Halle as a basis for the dome of the new Reichstag?"

...You said he was the greatest. I never said he was not great, just that he was certainly not the greatest as his work is not original in any way. Still, Norman Foster. Is this the man who decides who's great? Just because I don't think he's among the greatest, does not mean that I dislike his work. That's just what you make of it.

"You should overlook your ideology for once. Just because someone was involved with the Third Reich does not discount their greatness."

...I think you missed the point here: on my account (I am not so sure about yours) this has nothing to do with ideology. Third Reich or not, he was not original and a copy-cat. Thus he can't be "The Greatest", not even in the top three.

"How can you discredit his design of the Nuremberg parade grounds that are seen in Leni Riefenstahl's masterpiece dokumentarfilm, Triumph des Willens? I suppose that you think that Leni Riefenstahl was not great either?"

...Did I discredit his design of the parade grounds? Is my opinion about Riefenstahl important when it comes to Speers work? You are wandering away from the subject. But if you must know: I think Riefenstahl is an important and skillful director, who set the prime example of how a propaganda movie must be made. Apart from that I also like he post war productions. But again, she is not the greatest director of all times. As with Speer, this does not mean she is not good. And when you say that Speer is the greatest architect ever, Riefenstahl the greatest director and Triumpf des Willens the greatest film ever, then I seriously wonder why you tell me that "You should overlook your ideology for once".

"I feel that you only like Hendrik Petrus Berlage because he is from Amsterdam."

...No, I mention him because he was original in his designs. Something Speer was not.

"He was good, but not great, even though he did alot for the Dutch; he could never compare to Speer. The thing that hurt him the most was his inspiration from the works of Frank Lloyd Wright. The only people that I know that think of Berlage as great are the Dutch."

...Guess you didn't ask that many people. Just the other day I talked with a Chinese architect who came all the way to Holland to visit the buildings of Dudok and Berlage. And he's just one example of thousands of architects who are admirers of the "Amsterdamse school". And mentioning Lloyd Wright is a lame attempt to show that Speer was not alone in not being original.

"It is fine that you like your own, but sometimes I think that schools in the Netherlands teach that he was the only architect to ever live."

...Your view on the educational system in Holland is fabulous, but incorrect. Dream on Nordic warrior.



Timowr
Veteran Member

Posts: 314
(1/29/02 8:04:59 am)
Re: Triumph des Willens
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yes. I think that Berlin would be very beautiful if those buildings were constructed."

LOL. Does it matter which Berlin was totally destroyed by the Russians? No way post war Germany had rebuild Speer's Berlin, had it been realized before 1945. Thus the present situation would have been the same.

Dream on Nordic warrior. When you close your eyes your beloved Fourth Reich is there, but when you open them...hey, see, Schröder is still there and the Ostmark is still Austria.

DPWES
Veteran Member
Posts: 318
(1/29/02 8:50:55 am)
Thorfinn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!LOL!!! Keep it up!!! You're becoming funnier by the day. I actually enjoy reading your posts now. No, really. ;-)

GUEST
Visitor
(1/29/02 2:22:34 pm)
Re: Albert Speer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thorfinn,

Thanks for the tribute to Albert Speer and for supplying the pictures. Very Good!

He was indeed a very clever architect and much to be admired. Hitler himself knew the style that he wanted and Speer was able to put it into effect. They worked very well together.

A Visitor

Ozzy
Visitor
(1/29/02 5:39:58 pm)
old style in Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is absolutely right that we cannot prove if Speer was the greatest architect or someone else. Much easier to find the fastest runner or highest jumper of course. But insulting people for their believe is another thing. I do not care if Torfinn is nationalist, socialist, communist, anarchist, nihilist, democrat or all together. As long he respect human rights, does not denying the holocaust etc. he can be what he want and there is no need for me to get wet pants like others.

Speer's style of buildings is not new of course. In Greece that style was modern a few hundred years before the Nazi's came to power. To copy that style in Berlin was not an idea of Hitler nor from Speer. Have a look to this picture of the Nationalgalerie as good example:

Image

The Nationalgalerie was founded in 1861 on the basis of a generous donation. The building was erected on Museum Island between 1866 and 1876 by Heinrich Strack to designs by August Stüler. You see long before the Nazi's came to power in Berlin they liked to copy Athens temples.

If you ask the people of Berlin vor Speer, they will rise up their shoulders. But most of them can tell you who Schinkel was. Like many ohter buildings in Berlin he designed Berlin's world-famous Museum Island between the River Spree and Kupfergraben. Development of the building complex began with the Altes Museum which was designed by Schinkel. It was in this building that King Frederick William III made art treasures accessible to the public for the first time in 1830.

Image

Altes Museum

Image

Kaiser-Friedrich-Museum (today Bodemu

Timowr
Veteran Member

Posts: 316
(1/29/02 6:25:45 pm)
Re: old style in Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As long he respect human rights, does not denying the holocaust etc."

Are you new around? Guess you are.

Thorfinn
Member

Posts: 81
(1/30/02 1:16:12 am)
Architects
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since speaking of Speer, and now Schinkel has been mentioned, we don't want to leave out Paul Ludwig Troost. You guys should bash him a little bit too. To call these men "copiers" is an unfair characterization. Many of Speer's works were containing a Germanic style, but the reason that they may look similar to the older works is that you can only go so far until you create a building that is neither grand, nor beautiful. You must remember that these buildings were to last 1,000 years. The reason that I mentioned Frank Lloyd Wright was not to "attempt to show that Speer was not alone in not being original", but it was rather to state that the reason that, in my opinion, some of the works of Berlage are unattractive, is that his influence from FLW contributed to the blander, and more unattractive elements in the nature of his designs.

"The fact is that we live in an age of chaotic confusion, and this applies to art as well. We have no traditional style. One speaks of the modern. What is modern? Usually something pretty boring, and surely without a distinct character. You have modern Gothic, modern Renaissance, and even modern Norse, Indian, Japanese, and Chinese. You have works of art in all these styles. If it weren't so sad one could laugh at it. And why is all this somehow cheering? Because this is a situation that lends us to expect the emergence of something great."

Hendrik Petrus Berlage: Art and Architecture in the Netherlands. p8.

Apparently, Berlage thought of himself as great.

If you want to call men "copiers", I ask you to look at the south-west corner of the Beurs van Berlage, since Berlage was mentioned. The bell tower was quite clearly inspired by the Italian campanile. Not that the Beurs van Berlage is not one of the world's most important architectural monuments. In my view, Berlage's appreciation for the Italian campanile does not make him a "copier", even though the campanile is a feature of any number of medieval Italian ecclesiastical, and muncipal structures. Like its Italian prototypes, the Beurs van Berlage campanile is built of brick, although it pays little respect to the characteristic widening of the upper part of the tower that was often present in the early Italian designs. The Italian influence is clear in the Beurs van Berlage.

When you think of Speer, look at his "Cathedral of Light", his Zeppelin Field, his model for a new Berlin. Look at his designs for the Große Halle , the Südbahnhof, the Neue Reichskanzlei, Hitler's Study, the Neue Reichskanzlei's Cabinet Room, ect. These designs look, and speak of Germany. Speer was really quite inventive. In his book, Speer says, "Instead of great banners, I provided a gigantic eagle of over a hundred feet in wingspan to crown the Zeppelin Field. I spiked it to a timber framework like a butterfly in a collection."









http://www.ety.com/berlin/kanzlei.htm

Do you know that Albert Speer ordered the development of Sturmpanzer IV? During a conference on October 2, 1942, Speer presented the plans of a new Sturmpanzer and on October 14, 1942, designs were shown to Adolf Hitler. Based on these designs, Hitler ordered production of 60 new vehicles to be ready by spring 1943.

Go see the former Japanese Embassy in Germany that was constructed in Tiergarten starting in 1939 and completed in 1941. The building design was carried out by architects Moshamar and Pinnau under the direction of Albert Speer. Much of it was destroyed during the war, and it was partially restored in the early 1980s. You can now see the contrast of the original Speer style, and the exterior and interior of the side elevations that incorporate modern day Bauhaus-inspired designs. Tell me which looks more pleasing to the eye.

You speak about the massiveness of Speer's plans as if that was bad. What of "Plan Zuid" of Berlage? With this project "modesty" was combined with the big, monumental way of building, and the Dutch tradition of social housing lives on.

I do not discount that Speer's designs were in some parts eclectic, but they were no more a copy as the works of any popular architect are. In my view, Speer's designs were vastly superior to the international Bauhaus style that was popular at the time. I happen to favor things that look nice.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...You and other architects? So you're an architect?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I do not practice (I am a builder/developer though), but I did attend the Xxxx University School of Art and Architecture, although I did not go all the way to get my M.Arch because of time constraints. The BSc.ARCH is normally like 8 or 10 semesters, so you see how long it takes, and I didn't need to go further. I also studied automotive design, and I graduated from a premier American B-school.


PS
Albert Speer Jr. was the designer of the Hannover Expo.

Edited by: Thorfinn at: 1/30/02 1:22:15 am

Timowr
Veteran Member

Posts: 319
(1/30/02 3:37:20 am)
Re: Architects
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hannover Expo? Isn't that the expo that failed to attract enough people to get even in the costs?

But anyway. As long as you can't except that Speer was not the greatest and refuse to see that I don't say that he's bad, then this discussion is useless.

Ezboard

#2

Post by Ezboard » 30 Sep 2002, 19:30

Steve
Visitor
(1/30/02 12:40:19 pm)
Thorfinn, you ROCK!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Awesome pictures and yes, I was in Berlin and all over Germany last Summer and saw many of Speer's remaining works and what was left was truly beautiful and awe inspiring. I agree with everything that you say.

That's right Timowr, your dialog with Thorfinn is useless because it is YOU who is trying to dissaude him from his opinion. He is only defending his opinion, not trying to change yours. Some of us enjoy readin his opinion. So why should his opinion be stifled because you don't like it? Its clear you are anti-Nazi. I for one admire MANY things about the Third Reich including the Architecture, the Patriotism, the Music, the Arts, the Parades, the Banners, the Uniforms, the Rallies, the Commaraderie, (notice I haven't said anything about war or killings) because that is not what I think about when I think about the Third Reich. So admiration of the Third Reich does not make one a flag waving, war-mongering, anti-Jew barbarian, so you can save all that for someone who gives a crap.

(below) The (unfinished) Nazi Party Congress Hall, largest surviving Third Reich building in Germany. Believe me folks, this building was HUGE! I took this picture while touring the Nazi Party Rally Grounds in Nuremberg. It was beyond fascinating.


Image


Post Reply

Return to “Propaganda, Culture & Architecture”