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varjag
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#286

Post by varjag » 14 Mar 2006, 01:40

varjag wrote:A.N. Tupolev - 'experimental'...something or other :roll: , Varjag
It seems to have radiators under all four engines, whereas the TB-7/Pe-8 had them under
the inboard engines.....? Is this something related to I.F. Nezval - when he took over the
project after they had put Petlyakov in jail?????

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BIGpanzer
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#287

Post by BIGpanzer » 14 Mar 2006, 02:12

varjag!
You know Soviet airplanes very good, why you couldn't answer, I am wondering? This is more easy than you think :) Just name it, should be no alternative :)

Yes, that heavy bomber had radiators under all four engines. And indeed heavy bomber TB-7 (Pe-8) had radiators only under inboard engines.
But: I.F Nezval (deputy of V.M. Petlyakov) never was the designer/engineer of that bomber on the photo, also one big hint - that heavy bomber made first flight (exactly the modification I've mentioned above) earlier than V.M. Petlyakov was arrested (30.10.1937).


varjag
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#288

Post by varjag » 14 Mar 2006, 03:34

My problem, BIGpanzer - is that despite a working knowledge of Soviet aeroplanes of the
thirties - I have never seen a picture of 'your' a/c before :roll:. Wings, engine mounts,
landing gear...all seems very similar to the TB-7 so I guess there is some connection - but, alas
I do not know......Varjag

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BIGpanzer
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#289

Post by BIGpanzer » 14 Mar 2006, 08:24

Hi, varjag!
What hint do you need to identify the plane? As for TB-7 (Pe-8) - they were separate projects, and TB-7 was more later bomber.
May be the following detail will help you - unfortunately, the photo quality of nose glassed section is bad, and it looks differ in parts in good side drawings of that bomber.

varjag
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#290

Post by varjag » 14 Mar 2006, 13:25

BIGpanzer wrote:Hi, varjag!
What hint do you need to identify the plane? As for TB-7 (Pe-8) - they were separate projects, and TB-7 was more later bomber.
May be the following detail will help you - unfortunately, the photo quality of nose glassed section is bad, and it looks differ in parts in good side drawings of that bomber.
Alas, BIG-panzer - there was no picture with your post......The only other design bureau that I can think of, working with
large multiengined aircraft at that time was that led by R.L.Bartini.. he too, disappeared in the Yezhovzhina. But - the
engine nacelles and wing-mountings of 'your aircraft' are very resemblant of the Yer-2's?...brother - I am lost in the
djungle... :lol: , Varjag

Rodan Lewarx
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#291

Post by Rodan Lewarx » 14 Mar 2006, 13:58

Dear Varjag!
Yer-2 had 2 engines so that bomber can't be Yer-2. But I don't know what is the plane on the foto. :(

Regards

varjag
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#292

Post by varjag » 14 Mar 2006, 14:08

Rodan Lewarx wrote:Dear Varjag!
Yer-2 had 2 engines so that bomber can't be Yer-2. But I don't know what is the plane on the foto. :(

Regards
Thanks dear Rodan - I know that and Bartini seemed to have loved 'gull-wings' - but, as I
wrote - I am fumbling around in darkness - looking for a light.......Varjag

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BIGpanzer
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#293

Post by BIGpanzer » 14 Mar 2006, 16:46

varjag wrote:
Alas, BIG-panzer - there was no picture with your post......The only other design bureau that I can think of, working with
large multiengined aircraft at that time was that led by R.L.Bartini.. he too, disappeared in the Yezhovzhina. But - the
engine nacelles and wing-mountings of 'your aircraft' are very resemblant of the Yer-2's?...brother - I am lost in the
djungle... , Varjag
What do you mean with the picture? I posted photo and just mentioned that also several good side drawings of that plane existed :) No R.Bartini :) Yer-2 design was of much smaller dimensions/flying weight and more modern than this bomber :) Yer-2 was long-range medium bomber, not heavy :) I would like to say that knowledge of history of Pe-8 (especially early) will give the name of this bomber, but it was not Pe-8 (TB-7) and not its prototype.

I am really wondering, guys, this is quite simple question for aircraft historians. And you know this plane for sure I guess, just couldn't recognize it. Well, varjag, you know Soviet airplanes very good - just write here the names of all Soviet 4-engines bombers of 1930s you know, may be you will write the name of that plane also. If so - I will note it :) Hint: forget about the photo - just mention all 4-engines Soviet bombers.................

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wright61
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#294

Post by wright61 » 14 Mar 2006, 20:36

some sort of yakovlev

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BIGpanzer
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#295

Post by BIGpanzer » 14 Mar 2006, 20:44

Yakovlev was the famous designer of training/multipurpose aircrafts (AIR-1/18, UT-1/2) and fighters (Yak-1/9), also he was the designer of 2-engines light bomber/reconnaissance plane Yak-2/4 and 2-engines transport plane Yak-6. He designed also several experimental light bombers/combat planes. AFAIK he didn't develop heavy and long-range bombers at all.

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#296

Post by Rodan Lewarx » 14 Mar 2006, 21:07

Bolkhovitinov's DB-A. :)

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Davide Pastore
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#297

Post by Davide Pastore » 14 Mar 2006, 21:16

Rodan Lewarx wrote:Bolkhovitinov's DB-A. :)
IMHO it doesn't look very similar:
http://avia.russian.ee/air/russia/db-a.html
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/2811.htm

Addendum - actually this one looks more similar
http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/db-a.html

Davide

Rodan Lewarx
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#298

Post by Rodan Lewarx » 14 Mar 2006, 22:00

Compare with drawings of DB-A here: http://base13.glasnet.ru/text/shavrov2/p014b.htm
One of the variants looks similar to foto.

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BIGpanzer
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#299

Post by BIGpanzer » 15 Mar 2006, 01:15

Yes, Rodan, finally!!!!!!
Nevertheless, it is more correct to name that heavy bomber as DB-2A because DB-A was a prototype of that model.

Short history:
the designer of DB-A was professor V.F. Bolkhovitinov from Zhukovsky Academy of Air Forces. And DB-A means "Dalny Bombardirovshchik-Academia" = "Long-range Bomber-Academy". That was the intermediate model between heavy bomber TB-3 and heavy bomber TB-7 (Pe-8).
The first prototype was built in November 1934 and its first flight took place in May 1935. DB-A was tested till the June 1936 and it was much better in specifications than the main heavy bomber of USSR of that period TB-3 (because of excellent aerodynamics with semi-retractable gear (2m wheels), closed cabins and turrets, operated hydraulically). There were special passes inside the wings, so mechanic could operate engines during the flight. It was found that DB-A could continue flight on two engines, but it was recommended to replace AM-34RN engines on AM-34RNV engines. Bomber had excellent manoeuvrability, but visibility from pilots' cabin was bad during take-off and landings.
In November 1936 DB-A broke two world records - the bomber reached 7032 m altitude with 10 t of cargos and 4553 m with 13 t of cargos. In May 1937 two new world records were broken - speed 280 km/h with 5 t of cargos at 1000 km distance and speed 246 km/h with 5 t of cargos at 2000 km distance.

That prototype after reequipment was named N-209 and given to the Department of polar aviation of the Main North Sea Route (Glavsevmorput). 12 August 1937 unarmed N-209 with additional fuel tank in bomb bay began the transarctic non-stop flight through the North Pole from USSR to USA (1st pilot - famous polar pilot and Hero of USSR S.A. Levanevsky). The last radio message from N-209 (13 August) said that the plane crossed the North Pole successfully, but one engine stopped and the plane began to ice.... And that was all, no further news. The plane disappeared in Arctic and 9-months USSR/USA rescue expedition with many ice-breakers found nothing. The plane was not found till now (it could crash and sank in Arctic Ocean, may be even near Alaska already. The second possibility - Levanevsky made an emergency landing somewhere in Arctic, crew members tried to repair the oil system unsuccesfully and died in Arctic in several weeks, plane sank later because of crack of ice. Or the crew repaired all systems, tried to take-off and crashed). That fatal accident could be the disadvantages of oil system (each engine had independent oil system) and heavy controllability during strong wind/icing. Bolkhovitinov was against that flight as the plane was unfinished, only prototype, also the preparations to that record flight were made in a hurry, only during 2 months. AFAIK new Arctic expeditions are planning to find the lost N-209

The second prototype DB-2A was equipped with new powerful engines AM-34FRN with turbo compressors and variable-pitch propellers, also fully retractable gear was added instead semi-retractable. Armament was also strengthened: the bomber was equipped with new central electrical turret and two additional 7.62mm MG ShKAS in engine nacelles (crew increased also - 11 men). DB-2A had completely new cabins with improved visibility. New bomber was produced in small amount in 1938-1939 (12 were built from 16 ordered, air factory N 22 - 3 copies, air factory N 124 - the rest). The photo shows DB-2A as serial heavy long-range bomber.
But DB-2A became obsolete already, so it was replaced in production by much more modern TB-7 (Pe-8) in 1940. Nevertheless, it was planned to produce additional improved series of DB-2A during WWII (that idea was rejected).

In 1936 the experimental BDD was build (improved DB-A with 1240 hp engines M-34FRN and airtight cabins) and in 1939 the new modification of DB-2A was developed ("heavy cruiser" TK-1 with 3x20mm + 5x7.62mm + 8 RS missiles).

Specifications of DB-A: full weight up to 32 t; dimensions 24.4x39.5m; 4xAM-34RN engines, 970 hp each; speed 330-370 km/h; climbing rate 2.45 m/s; altitude 7730 m; range 4600 km; armament 4-6x7.62mm + 1x12.7(or 1x20)mm + up to 6 t bombs (3 t in bomb bay); crew 7 men. Bomber was equipped with two radio stations, autopilot and radio-compass.

Photos:
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/dba/dba-1.jpg (DB-A, disappeared in Arctic N-209)
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/dba/dba-4.jpg (DB-A, N-209)
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/dba/dba-3.jpg (DB-A on skis)
http://eroplan.boom.ru/planes/db-a/db-a_8.jpg (picture of DB-A)
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/dba/dba-5.jpg (DB-2A as serial heavy long-range bomber)

http://astronaut.ru/bookcase/books/chert1/foto/1-3.jpg (designer V.F. Bolkhovitinov to the left, 1st pilot S.A. Levanevsky to the right - before notorious flight to USA near N-209)
http://epizodsspace.testpilot.ru/bibl/c ... ga-2/3.jpg (the same day, just before the flight - V.F. Bolkhovitinov and crew members of N-209)
http://eroplan.boom.ru/bibl/baidukov/pi ... ct3-11.jpg (N-209 and its crew, left to right: radio operator N. Galkovsky, 2nd pilot N. Kastanaev, commander S. Levanevsky, air-mechanics G. Pobezhimov, N. Godovikov, navigator V. Levchenko)

http://www.saint-exupery.ru/content/rus ... Karta2.jpg (route of DB-A from USSR to USA through the North Pole, dotted line - where the plane disappeared)

Rodan Lewarx
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#300

Post by Rodan Lewarx » 15 Mar 2006, 10:24

AFAIK new Arctic expeditions are planning to find the lost N-209
Yes, the searching of N-209 continues. There are a number of expedition trying to find crash place but without any result.

My question is easy. Name this tank.
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