Krojanty 01 sep 1939.

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tigre
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Krojanty 01 sep 1939.

#1

Post by tigre » 18 Dec 2005, 16:56

Hello to all, a little question about one matter argued so many times in the past.

As we know today the Polish cavalry attacking panzers with sabers was a myth, such a charge never happened indeed. But is a fact that in the Krojanty's sorrounding on 01 sep 1939 around 19:00 hours, the 1squadron (Cpt E. Swiesciak) and the 2 squadron (Cpt J. Lados) of the Polish 18 Cavalry Regiment (Col Mastalerz) counter-attacked the left flank of one German infantry motorized column (76 IR ?) belonging to the German 20 ID Motorized (Gen Lt Wiktorin). Suddenly the riders were engaged in a fire fight with panzers and motorized units (German) advancing from Konitz / Chojnice; as a result of that action fallen the 18 Cavalry Regiment's CO, Col Mastalerz, Cpt Swiesciak and 2º lt Milicki and almost 250 Polish riders.
The situation, with regards to the panzers and motorized force's deployment, was as follows:

Aufklarung lehr Abteilung with the III Army Corps, marching towards Bromberg.

3rd Panzer Brigade / 3rd Panzer Division, crossing the Brahe at Hammermulhe.

23 Aufklarung Abteilung / 23 ID, behind of the 3rd Panzer Division, covering the right flank of the XIX Pz Corps.

2 nd ID Motorized, engaged with its three Infantry Regiments around Pamietowo.

8 Panzer Regiment / 10 Panzer Division, being transported from Boblingen to the Border, via Damerkow - Lupow - Bütow - Rummelsburg.

So I'm trying hard to find out:

1.Which unit engaged the Polish riders? (may be the Panzerspähwagen-Kompanie of the 20 A.A. or 2 A.A.?)

2. What kind of panzer could be? (may be Sd.Kfz. 233 of the schwere zug or Sd.Kfz. 222 [armed with a 2.0cm KwK 38 L/55] of the leichte zug).

3. A German report about this or at least one skecht from the 20 ID point of view.

Thanks in advance for your time and regards. Tigre.

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#2

Post by Bjørn from Norway » 03 Feb 2006, 14:03

Hello!

1.Which unit engaged the Polish riders? (may be the Panzerspähwagen-Kompanie of the 20 A.A. or 2 A.A.?)

2. What kind of panzer could be? (may be Sd.Kfz. 233 of the schwere zug or Sd.Kfz. 222 [armed with a 2.0cm KwK 38 L/55] of the leichte zug).

3. A German report about this or at least one skecht from the 20 ID point of view.


1: Artl.Abt 20 did encounter the Polish,the report say "2 Polish Squadrons" managed to find a way between II./76 and III./76. These squadrons "attacked in the old style". There were German infantry present too, but it does not say from which unit.

The other two questions: I cannot find any answer here. There are only a few notes about the incident in the divisional story.

B


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tigre
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Krojanty 01 sep 1939.

#3

Post by tigre » 03 Feb 2006, 19:36

Thank you very much Bjorn, my doubt was solved anyway. :wink: .Regards. Tigre.

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#4

Post by Mark V. » 10 Feb 2006, 14:09

Hi tigre!

From Gekämpft-gesiegt-verloren:

01.09.1939:
Reaching the west side of Brahe the Brigade [3.Pz.Brigade] momentarily makes a stop. It has already advanced nearly 30km into enemy territory. At that moment a Polish Cavalry Brigade attacks its left flank. In spite of heavy losses by our machine-gun fire it continues attacking.

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tigre
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Gekämpft-gesiegt-verloren

#5

Post by tigre » 10 Feb 2006, 23:52

Hello Mark V., great input. Two questions:

1. Who wrote that book?
2. Do you have something more about the brahe's crossing?

TIA. Regards. Tigre.

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Re: Gekämpft-gesiegt-verloren

#6

Post by Christoph Awender » 11 Feb 2006, 00:15

tigre wrote:Hello Mark V., great input. Two questions:

1. Who wrote that book?
2. Do you have something more about the brahe's crossing?

TIA. Regards. Tigre.
Gekämpft - gesiegt - verloren, Die Geschichte des Panzer Regiment 6 v. 1740 - 1980, Oskar Munzel, Mittler VErlag

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tigre
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Gekämpft-gesiegt-verloren

#7

Post by tigre » 11 Feb 2006, 01:15

Thank you very much Christoph, I've learnt a lot about the fights in the Polish Corridor from your website. Cheers. Tigre.

PD: any update?

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#8

Post by Mark V. » 11 Feb 2006, 13:19

Hi tigre!

Yes, that's the book.
2. Do you have something more about the brahe's crossing?
Nothing more then what is already written on Christoph's excellent site. Same goes for the divisional history.

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#9

Post by tigre » 11 Feb 2006, 14:08

Thank you Mark V. .Cheers. Tigre.

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#10

Post by ToKu » 25 Feb 2006, 21:34

Map of a charge:


Image


Npl. = enemy
p. uł. = cavalry regiment
Szw. = squadron
I dyon 18 p. uł. = 1st dyon(?) of 18th cav. reg.
wsparcie ogniowe dcy pułku = regiment's commander fire support - I'm not sure what does it mean in this particualar situation
odwrót własnej piechoty = retreat of Polish infantry

place of colonel Kazimierz Mastalerz death is marked with cross.

By the way, Tigre, where have You taken 250 polish casualties? Author of the book "Wrzesień 1939" - Andrzej Krzysztof Kunert, who is a very respected Polish historian is giving 25 as a number of polish casualties. Map is taken from this book.

Guderian is his book writes that commander of 2nd Mot reported that he is forced to retreat under pressure of Polish Cavalry . He also writes that HQ of this division was helpless. So it doesn't look like a stunning German victory (250 cas.) to me.

Moreover, attack was made with 2 squadrons, later supported by some "regiment's commander fire support ". Cavalry squadron was consisting of 120 men. That means that if Germans killed some 250 of Polish ulans then almost every solder that took part in attack was killed.

Finally, I belive that only "regiment's commander fire support " met panzers in this attack, so 250 dead ulans is rather overestimation.

Probably the truth lies somewhere between 25 and 250, but in my opinion much closer to Polish then German estimation.
Polish side have seen this charge as successful.
Last edited by ToKu on 26 Feb 2006, 11:50, edited 1 time in total.

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tigre
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250 Ulans

#11

Post by tigre » 25 Feb 2006, 23:11

Hello Toku; first, thank you for posting the map of the charge and the notes. With regards to the such number (250) it was my mistake, I took it by error while I was reading the article showed below (I'll try to improve my Polish):

Opis potyczki

Grupa manewrowa posuwała się według wyznaczonej trasy, mając na przedzie szpicę w sile jednego plutonu ppor. Kazimierza Uranowicza. Tuż za nią na czele dywizjonu wraz ze swoim pocztem podążał płk Mastalerz, a za nim 1. i 2. szwadron. W rejonie Krojant ok. godz. 19:00 ułani dostrzegli na polanie piechotę niemiecką w sile ok. baonu w luźnym ugrupowaniu w odległości 300-400 m. od skraju lasu. Nieoczekiwane natknięcie się na niczego niespodziewającego się npla zmusiło oddział manewrowy do podjęcia działania. W tych okolicznościach wykorzystując element zaskoczenia nie pozostawało nic innego jak tylko szarżować na przeciwnika. Pod osłoną lasu szwadrony uszykowały się w dwa rzuty szwadronowe w odległości 200 m od siebie i sformowały szyki linii plutonów, rozwiniętych w kolejności najpierw 1. a potem 2. szwadron. Poczet dowódcy znajdował się na lewym skrzydle szykujących się do walki kawalerzystów. Ułani rozpoczęli szarżę przy użyciu szabel. Przeciwnik był zupełnie zaskoczony i rozpoczął chaotyczną ucieczkę ponosząc przy tym duże straty. Padli również pierwsi zabici po stronie atakujących, zginął m.in. w tej pierwszej odsłonie rtm. Świeściak. Tymczasem na lewym skrzydle ugrupowania do szarżujących otworzyły ogień zamaskowane w lesie pojazdy opancerzone próbując osłonić własną piechotę. W takiej sytuacji szwadrony szybko odskoczyły na prawo, za pobliskie zalesione wzniesienie terenu, w celu uniknięcia większych strat w ludziach. Natomiast znajdujący się najbliżej otwierających ogień Niemców poczet dowódcy pułku został praktycznie zmieciony ogniem broni maszynowej. Poległ dowódca pułku płk Mastalerz, a wraz z nim ppor. Tadeusz Milicki. O wielkim szczęści mógł mówić rtm. Wacław Godlewski, gdyż zabito pod nim konia, i dzięki upadkowi uratował życie. Po zebraniu ułanów za wzniesieniem terenowym rtm. Ładoś jako najstarszy stopniem oficer w rejonie stoczonych walk zamierzał kontynuować rajd na tyły przeciwnika, jednak mjr Malecki przez nadesłanego przez siebie gońca nakazał odwrót na Rytel wzdłuż toru kolejowego. Szarża trwała kilka minut i zakończyła się pełnym sukcesem, chociaż okupionym dużymi stratami. Z pośród ok. 250 ułanów biorących udział w walce poległo 25 i kilku oficerów w tym dowódca pułku, 50 ułanów zostało rannych.. (from: http://www.augustynski.republika.pl/krojanty.htm)

Anyway the forum mates always enlighten us. Cheers. Tigre.

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#12

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 25 Feb 2006, 23:14

And here you find much about PzRgt.8 in 1939 ( not only :wink: )!

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... er/PR8.htm

Jan-Hendrik

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tigre
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PR8

#13

Post by tigre » 25 Feb 2006, 23:29

Thank you Jan-Hendryk, I appreciate your help. Cheers. Tigre.

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20 ID 01 sep 1939

#14

Post by tigre » 01 Mar 2006, 03:10

Hello to all. First, thanks for all your help gentlemen.
As a corollary for this topic; please, could someone provide me with a more or less accurate map about the 20 ID (motorized) deployment as 01 september 1939 and its advance through the Tucheler Heide. TIA. Tigre.

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#15

Post by ToKu » 01 Mar 2006, 18:27

Maps:

actions in "Polish corridor"

Image

and actions in Podlasie region:

Image

both maps taken from Polish, Bellona edition of "Erinnerungen eines Soldaten" by Heinz Guderian, Warsaw 2003


DPanc = Panzer Division
DP = Infantry Div.
DZmot = Mot. Inf. Div.
Korp. = Corps
KA = Army Corps
pp = Inf. reg.
BKaw = Cavalry Brigade

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