Fallschirmjäger availability to invade Malta

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Davide Pastore
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Fallschirmjäger availability to invade Malta

#1

Post by Davide Pastore » 03 Dec 2005, 17:50

rkiezenbrink wrote:If you look on http://www.ww2.dk you'll find a lot of info about the fallschirmjäger
Help needed!

I've researched a bit the FJ contribution to the planned 1942 invasion of Malta (my private obsession). The core would have been provided by the renowned Ramcke Brigade (DAK afterwards). However - according to the site above - a few additional battalions might have been available during summer 1942 (I./FJR 5, III./FJR 5, I./LLStR), while the remaining FJ troops were acting as foot infantry on the Eastern Front (and by now had probably lost their former jump capability).

However, in the book "Le Direttive Tecnico-Operative di Superaereo" [Superaereo Techno-Operative Orders, a collection of letters and papers relating to the Regia Aeronautica HQ during 1940-43, published by the Ufficio Storico Aeronautica Militare, four volumes] I've found a document which seems very interesting:

As Allegate 3 to the letter 7140/42 (31 May 42), from Kesselring (Der Oberbefehlshaber Süd) to Cavallero (Comando Supremo), title "Studio sulla preparazione ed esecuzione dell'operazione C.3 (Herkules)" [A Study about preparation and esecution of C.3] there is the OOB of German Para forces, which "...starting to be embarked in France on day X-30 or so, will be sent to the zone of gathering, to be ready on day X-2..."

From the site above, it seems that just a handful of battalions would have been available. So, it was really surprising to find in this allegate (being, I say again, a German - although translated in Italian - official document sent by Kesselring to Cavallero) the OOB of a complete division with 12 infantry battalions plus a boatload of supporting units! At first sight, it seems more or less the FJ OOB for Merkur, by now one year old. I've pasted the OOB here (unsure about max size allowed, maybe it's a bit unreadable but I was afraid to paste a file too large).

From the above, you can derive one (and only one) of the following two conclusions:

A) All books, articles and sources about Ramcke Brigade (including the site above) need a drastic revision! The Germans had a complete Para division up their sleeves during summer 1942, totally jump-capable (i.e., not stuck in the Russian mud, but actively training in Western Europe) and were ready to use it at short notice.

B) Kesselring was plainly kidding, and sent to Cavallero an OOB out of touch with 1942 reality (maybe he happened to have only an old Merkur OOB, and sent it just the same). Of course I assume that Kesselring should have known the exact German availability... should he?. So, it was just a bluff, a joke, a tall story, a humbug. (But, of course, we Italians are the ones betraying our ally... :? )
I stress this point because any single book I've read repeat the same old story: Kesselring wanted Malta very strongly - Rommel didn't want it - Kesselring was beaten - Rommel won. But, if Kesselring had plainly lied to his Italian friends, and wasn't really interested in Malta at all... maybe some part of the old story might need a revision!!!

Comments, Corrections, Observations, Ideas?

Davide

Split from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=90662 by the moderator - Andreas
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#2

Post by Davide Pastore » 19 Dec 2005, 06:18

Nothing?
Nothing at all?
No comment whatsoever?
Not even an "I don't care for this topic one pinch of owl etc." ? [Samuel Davis Sturgis, 1862]

Davide


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#3

Post by Andreas » 19 Dec 2005, 09:14

Davide Pastore wrote:Nothing?
Nothing at all?
No comment whatsoever?
Not even an "I don't care for this topic one pinch of owl etc." ? [Samuel Davis Sturgis, 1862]

Davide
Hi Davide

According to this ( http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Article.asp?ArticleID=191 - no idea how accurate it is), 7. Fliegerdivision left Russia early in 1942, to return in October, so in May 1942 they were probably in France and would have been available.

All the best

Andreas

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#4

Post by WBallok » 19 Dec 2005, 13:27

I've researched a bit the FJ contribution to the planned 1942 invasion of Malta (my private obsession). The core would have been provided by the renowned Ramcke Brigade (DAK afterwards). However - according to the site above - a few additional battalions might have been available during summer 1942 (I./FJR 5, III./FJR 5, I./LLStR), while the remaining FJ troops were acting as foot infantry on the Eastern Front (and by now had probably lost their former jump capability).
I think you have been reading some flawed sources. The original Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 5 was raised in May 1942. The Stab and I. Btl were new but II. and III. Btl came from II. and III./Luftlande-Sturm-Regiment 1. In July 1942, II./FJR5 was sent to North Africa with the Ramckebrigade but the rest of FJR5 went to France to prepare for the jump on Malta. The invasion of Malta was cancelled and the Stab and III Btl went to Tunisia in November 1942 to join the Ramckebrigade, which was a composite battle group of different sub-units and had nothing to do with the invasion of Malta. The Fallschirmschulen were operational until the late summer of 1944. By then, many members of the new "Fallschirmjäger" divisions were not parachute-trained but in 1942 and 1943 every active member of a Fallschirm unit was parachute-trained and there were parachute missions in 1943, 1944 and early 1945.

Bill

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#5

Post by Davide Pastore » 19 Dec 2005, 20:10

WBallok wrote:I think you have been reading some flawed sources
Really? Actually, what you wrote about FJR 5 is exactly the same thing I found in the site (have you checked it?) and then I summed up in my original message:
a few additional battalions might have been available during summer 1942 (I./FJR 5, III./FJR 5
Davide
Last edited by Davide Pastore on 19 Dec 2005, 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

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#6

Post by Davide Pastore » 19 Dec 2005, 20:12

Andreas wrote:According to this ( http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Article.asp?ArticleID=191 - no idea how accurate it is)
This is very interesting, and could well be the solution. Thank you.

Davide

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#7

Post by WBallok » 20 Dec 2005, 12:00

You should not believe all things you read on the internet. The Ramckebrigade was not formed to invade Malta. I made this clear in a discreet way in my post. Maybe it was too discreet for you. Of course I have read the internet article of which you speak. 7. Flieger-Division was given the task of invading Malta. The Ramckebrigade was for a different purpose. General Student did not have any spare Fallschirmjäger units at that time because 7. Flieger-Division was committed to the Eastern Front.

The Ramckebrigade was formed from different sub-units to comply with an order to send an airborne brigade to North Africa. Fallschirmjäger-Rgt 5 was already planned as part of the envisioned enlargement of the Fallschirmtruppe but was earmarked for Operation Hercules. However, one of the battalions with combat experience, II./FJR5, which was formerly II./LLSR1, was "lent" to the Ramckebrigade while the rest of the new regiment went to Reims with the other combat-experienced battalion to prepare for the Malta operation. After it was cancelled, they finished training and were then sent to Tunisia.

I hope this is clear enough for you. First you are aggressive because you do not receive a response as quickly as you wish and then you are quite sarcastic and aggressive to me when I respond to you. Perhaps you are annoyed because I pointed out your error about parachute training in the Fallschirmjäger? I regret responding now. I could have told you more but I will allow you to find your own way, Mr Pastore. Good luck with your studies.

Bill Ballok

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#8

Post by Andreas » 20 Dec 2005, 12:28

WBallok wrote:You should not believe all things you read on the internet. The Ramckebrigade was not formed to invade Malta. I made this clear in a discreet way in my post. Maybe it was too discreet for you. Of course I have read the internet article of which you speak. 7. Flieger-Division was given the task of invading Malta. The Ramckebrigade was for a different purpose. General Student did not have any spare Fallschirmjäger units at that time because 7. Flieger-Division was committed to the Eastern Front.

The Ramckebrigade was formed from different sub-units to comply with an order to send an airborne brigade to North Africa. Fallschirmjäger-Rgt 5 was already planned as part of the envisioned enlargement of the Fallschirmtruppe but was earmarked for Operation Hercules. However, one of the battalions with combat experience, II./FJR5, which was formerly II./LLSR1, was "lent" to the Ramckebrigade while the rest of the new regiment went to Reims with the other combat-experienced battalion to prepare for the Malta operation. After it was cancelled, they finished training and were then sent to Tunisia.

I hope this is clear enough for you. First you are aggressive because you do not receive a response as quickly as you wish and then you are quite sarcastic and aggressive to me when I respond to you. Perhaps you are annoyed because I pointed out your error about parachute training in the Fallschirmjäger? I regret responding now. I could have told you more but I will allow you to find your own way, Mr Pastore. Good luck with your studies.

Bill Ballok
Bill

I am not quite clear on this - first of all it contradicts the info I found on 7. Fliegerdivision linked above (which may well be wrong, in which case I would appreciate if you could post the correction). You say Ramcke's Brigade was not formed for Malta, which is in contradiction to e.g. http://www.feldgrau.com/ramcke.html . I am puzzled why the German high command would insist on a parachute unit to be sent to Africa, when they were thinking of invading Malta. That seems like a waste to me (which is not necessarily surprising, considering the way the Germans worked).

I must admit I know very little about this whole topic, so I would appreciate if you could provide some background information and sources. Thanks a lot in advance for any light you can shed.

All the best

Andreas

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#9

Post by WBallok » 20 Dec 2005, 14:29

As I said, do not trust everything you read on the internet, Andreas. I do not know where the author of the article on the Feldgrau website got the idea that Fallschirmjäger-Brigade 1, popularly known as the Ramcke-Brigade, was formed to invade Malta. What he says is true to a point but only to a point as it gives the impression that the OKW planned to take Malta with an airborne brigade. The plan, initially conceived in 1941 as part of Hitler's Mediterranean strategy, which included Mercury and Felix, involved an airborne division.

The only airborne division on the German OOB at the time was 7. Flieger-Division, which had suffered enormous losses on Crete. The invasion of Malta was scheduled for 10.7.1942. It is probable that Student and Kesselring saw FJB1 as a contingency force to be used against Malta if the Führer refused to allow 7. Flieger-Division to be withdrawn from the Eastern Front. In addition, Rommel's HQ had been asking for an airborne element since early in 1942 so FJB1 was also potentially in response to this. The brigade might have been sent to North Africa before July 1942 if Student and Kesselring had not been focusing on an airborne invasion of Malta.

But Hercules involved 7. Flieger-Division, with the newly-formed Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 5. Additional airborne reinforcements would have been provided by the Italian Folgore and Superba parachute divisions. It really is not conceivable that FJB1 would have been ordered to jump on Malta as the plan called for a division, not just a brigade. Hitler cancelled Operation Hercules after the Afrika-Korps captured Tobruk in June 1942. This was fortunate for the invasion force because British codebreakers using Enigma had forewarned the British government of Hercules and the Malta garrison was heavily reinforced in June 1942. So FJB1 was sent to North Africa in July 1942.

You wish to know my sources? Go to any reputable bookstore with a good section on military history and you will see some of them. Others have not been published or are not available outside archives.

Best wishes,

Bill Ballok

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#10

Post by Andreas » 20 Dec 2005, 17:54

WBallok wrote:As I said, do not trust everything you read on the internet, Andreas. I do not know where the author of the article on the Feldgrau website got the idea that Fallschirmjäger-Brigade 1, popularly known as the Ramcke-Brigade, was formed to invade Malta. What he says is true to a point but only to a point as it gives the impression that the OKW planned to take Malta with an airborne brigade. The plan, initially conceived in 1941 as part of Hitler's Mediterranean strategy, which included Mercury and Felix, involved an airborne division.
I do not trust everything I read on the internet, which is why I asked you for further info. I do not agree that the author gives the impression to take Malta with an airborne brigade. I simply get the impression that the brigade was formed to participate (and I presume there were other units that would do so as well) in the invasion.
WBallok wrote:The only airborne division on the German OOB at the time was 7. Flieger-Division, which had suffered enormous losses on Crete. The invasion of Malta was scheduled for 10.7.1942. It is probable that Student and Kesselring saw FJB1 as a contingency force to be used against Malta if the Führer refused to allow 7. Flieger-Division to be withdrawn from the Eastern Front.
Well, first the invasion of Crete was one year past, so those losses would have been replaced. So what mattered for the division was that it had suffered further losses in the east in the meantime. However, to me it looks as if the division was not actually on the eastern front between January and October, so it would not actually need a permission by Hitler to be withdrawn. So far I have not seen anything in this thread that contradicts that.
WBallok wrote:In addition, Rommel's HQ had been asking for an airborne element since early in 1942 so FJB1 was also potentially in response to this. The brigade might have been sent to North Africa before July 1942 if Student and Kesselring had not been focusing on an airborne invasion of Malta.
Thank you.
WBallok wrote:But Hercules involved 7. Flieger-Division, with the newly-formed Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 5. Additional airborne reinforcements would have been provided by the Italian Folgore and Superba parachute divisions. It really is not conceivable that FJB1 would have been ordered to jump on Malta as the plan called for a division, not just a brigade.
But it is conceivable that it would jump as part of the invasion force, together with 7. Fliegerdivision, don't you think?
WBallok wrote:You wish to know my sources? Go to any reputable bookstore with a good section on military history and you will see some of them. Others have not been published or are not available outside archives.
That is not a very helpful attitude. I looked again at my post, and I see no reason in it for you to respond in the way you did. But it is of course up to you to be as rude and unhelpful as you wish to be, so I shall take your advice from the first sentence and apply it to your post.

Regards

Andreas

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#11

Post by Davide Pastore » 20 Dec 2005, 20:18

WBallok wrote:Mr Pastore. Good luck with your studies.
Thank you.

Davide

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#12

Post by WBallok » 20 Dec 2005, 20:24

I am sorry if you think I am being rude and unhelpful. I was just trying to be helpful. I meant it in the best spirit when I told you that you should perhaps extend your research scope beyond the internet. FJB1 was formed from units that were part of 7. Flieger-Division. Now, why do you think FJB1 was formed? Which parts of 7. Flieger-Division were available after the division returned from Russia in December 1941? Which units remained in Russia at that time? When did the division return to Russia? Was most of 7. Flieger-Division in France in 1942, resting and refitting after the losses on the Eastern Front?

Best wishes,

Bill

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#13

Post by Davide Pastore » 20 Dec 2005, 21:29

WBallok wrote:I am sorry if you think I am being rude and unhelpful.
Forgetting this matter, and touching more important things: if you have any positive information about my original question (which was, to go to the heart of the problem: "Was the OOB showed in the picture the one actually available in June-July 1942 ? [Yes/No - please explain reasons if No]" ) and if you are willing to share it with the forum and with me, I will be glad to know.

Davide

Edited by moderator to remove OT content - Andreas

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#14

Post by Andreas » 20 Dec 2005, 21:36

WBallok wrote:I am sorry if you think I am being rude and unhelpful. I was just trying to be helpful. I meant it in the best spirit when I told you that you should perhaps extend your research scope beyond the internet.
Bill

I am aware of the existence of bookshops, and I even do own some books myself, yet none on this matter. It appears you have looked at this matter in more detail than I have. I therefore thought it the natural course to ask politely for your sources, and did not expect to be sent off like that.

The key to me is not to learn all there is about the history of 7. Fliegerdivision and the role of Fallschirmjaegers in the Med, but rather to simply establish whether Feldgrau and the other internet source are wrong. All it takes for this would be for a member of this forum to say 'XYZ in ABC, which is a reliable publication, based on unit records/memoirs/whatever states that 7. Fliegerdivision was in Russia/rebuilding and unavailable/gone AWOL in the period to which Davide's letter refers.' Then we can conclude that Feldgrau and the other website probably got it wrong, and that Kesselring's letter is puzzling. As it is at the moment we can not dismiss the information from Feldgrau, since we do not know what your sources are.
WBallok wrote: FJB1 was formed from units that were part of 7. Flieger-Division. Now, why do you think FJB1 was formed? Which parts of 7. Flieger-Division were available after the division returned from Russia in December 1941? Which units remained in Russia at that time? When did the division return to Russia? Was most of 7. Flieger-Division in France in 1942, resting and refitting after the losses on the Eastern Front?

Best wishes,

Bill
1. No idea, but maybe because they thought they needed more FJ units. It was normal practice to remove a battalion or two from a division and build a regiment out of it, while replacing them in the division with new units.
2. According to the article I linked, until July 42 FJR2, 1./FJPz.J. 7, and maybe 1./LLSR and FJ-MG Btl. 7. According to another link, additionally FJR 1 fighting partisans near Smolensk. ( http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... r/FJR1.htm ) Is that correct?
3. October 1942, according to said article
4. That is how I understood the article I linked. It looks to me as if a large part of the division was in France at least from July 1942, stationed in Normandy http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... r/FJR2.htm . This would be FJR2, FJR3 maybe, FJR 4 in Aufstellung. Also presumably the artillery and support troops minus those listed above. Is that not correct?

As I said before, I would be grateful for corrections of all this, if it should be wrong (no doubt there are errors), with sources. The reason that I ask for sources is first that it is in accordance with forum rules, secondly it is the only way of weighing conflicting information, thirdly it provides a pointer for other members who want to research the matter as to where they should turn to do so.

All the best

Andreas

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#15

Post by Andreas » 20 Dec 2005, 21:50

Just as a moderation aside - it is perfectly alright for forum members to bump their questions if they have not received a reply after an reasonable amount of time has gone by. In this case it was 16 days, which I judge to be very reasonable indeed. There is nothing aggressive about it.

We do however prefer that questions like this are being asked in a dedicated thread, not buried in another thread, which is why I have split it out. This will make it easier to retrieve it with the search engine, and will usually get answers quicker.

All the best

Andreas

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