DivNr. 407&467 and AusbDiv. "Bayern"

[Jan-Hendrik]

To not disturb this topic to much http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=92920 , I will continue here !

DivNr. 407 had GL Sintzenich as Kdr. , As I think he was Kdr. of the "AusbDiv: Bayern" later.
But who was Kdr.of DivNr. 467 ??

Where 407 & 467 put together to form the "Bayern" ?

Who can enlight me this riddle a little bit ( maybe I simply missed something , thats possible , too ) ?

Jan-Hendrik

[genstab]

Jan-Hendrik-
I see you haven't had any reply yet. I don't speak German but Tessin seems to be saying that on 15.9.44 Div 407 was disbanded and its units put under Div. 467, then in 1945 Div 407 was reformed and placed under Hgr. D on 26 March and was also known as Div. Bayern.

Under 467. Div Tessin seems to say that 407 and 467. Div were combined on 26 March 1945 to form Ausbildungsdiv. Bayern; Mehner says Sintzenich was Kdr of 467. Div till 26.3.45 and then 407. Div until 30-4-45. (Mehner gives no commander for Ausbildungsdiv Bayern.) Tessin says in April Div Bayern "wurde an der Front in die 212. Inf. Div. eingegliedert"- I don't know what that means- can a German speaker tell me?

However, under Ausbildungsdiv. Bayern Tessin says it was formed from Div 407 and 467 in April 1945; he gives a (12) Apr. Unterstellung as XIII SS AK, !. Armee while the 407. Div Unterstellung for (12) Apr 1945 is shown as OB West. Both these divisions are shown in these locations in the 12.4.45 OKH O/B Kriegsgliederung.

If you don't get any more information why don't you ask this question in Axis Biographical Research where Dieter Zinke may be able to help you with the commander's name for Div Bayern at least- he may also be able to clarify the divisions' histories and locations. I wish I could be of more help.

Best regards,
Genstab

[Jan-Hendrik]

Thanks , dear friend !

This interesting topic caused a long discussion with Mr.Linzmaier
It seems , as even our dear Dieter recognized , that WK VII was real chaos on 1945 ! :roll:
More staff than troops as I would say ....

Jan-Hendrik

[genstab]

Jan-Hendrik-
I forgot to check the 24.4.45 Stellenbesetzung for clues. It says that GLT Oskar Blümm was Div Kdr of 407. Div but only to 1.4.45 and then sick (Krank) so after that we have no Kdr. Bradley also says Blümm was 407. Div Kdr from 1.11.42 (no ending date- but Mehner says until 15.9.44. Also, the Stellenbesetzung says Sintzenich was 467. Div Kdr on 24.4.45. It seems that it was 407. Div under OB West that was also called Ausbildsdiv Bayern according to the Unterstellung for it in Tessin for 12.4.45.
So all we need is a Div Fuehrer for 407. Div from 1.4.45 and we could be happy.

Best Regards,
Genstab

[Jan-Hendrik]

According to what the other Jan told me at 1.4.45 GM Fehn took over the command of Div Nr.407 ...

Jan-Hendrik

[genstab]

Aha! I missed it! It's a separate entry in Mehner under Infanteriedivisionen- 407. Div (E):
GenMaj Franz Fehn 26.3.45-30.3.45
Ulich, GenMaj Max 30.3.45-1.4.45
Fehn, GenMaj Gustav (mistake- he was a full Gen d. Geb. Tr and commanding XV Geb. AK)- should be Franz Fehn) 1.4.45-28.4.45

As Gen. Fehn was assigned on 26.3, the same date Gen. Blümm was, I'd say Gen. Blümm never took up the command, being officially sick 1.4. Opinions or better proof, anyone?

Best regards,
Genstab

[genstab]

I'm trying to put this all down on paper rto see how it looks with athe wo divisions' histories. Would someone who speaks German please translate this for me- from Mehner: "Die Deutsche Wehrmacht 1939-1945":

Div. Nr. 407 (3.45, durch Umbenenung der Div. Nr. 467, die Ausb. Teile wurden mit der Gotenbewegung als Div. "Bayern" mobil:)"
Kdr 3.45-30.4.45 GenLt Sintzenich, Rudolf

Thanks much-
Genstab

[Jan-Hendrik]

Div. Nr. 407 (3.45, durch Umbenenung der Div. Nr. 467, die Ausb. Teile wurden mit der Gotenbewegung als Div. "Bayern" mobil:)"
Kdr 3.45-30.4.45 GenLt Sintzenich, Rudolf

will mean :

Div Nr. 407 ( 3.45 by renaming of Div. Nr.467 , the training parts mobilizid at the Div."Bayern" at "Gotenbewegung"

Now making it better ...

According to Linzmayer Poppe replaced Sintznich as Kdr. of 467 on 17.4.45 and Blümm was Kdr. of the "Bayern"

This whole WK VII is driving me crazy at the moment ! I thought always the chaos here in Northern Germany was complex enough , but Bayern tops everything I met in my life ...


Jan-Hendrik

[genstab]

I think that's a mistake on Poppe; I see that Keilig says it but he was commanding 469. Div. zbV according to the 24.4.45 Stellenbesetzung.

Here's the scenario I have so far- see how it looks, everybody:

407th Replacement Div (Div. Nr. 407)
Oskar Blümm to 15.9.44; disbanded- units to 467th Repl. Div.


407. Div A- reformed 3/45 from part of 467th Repl. Div; may be same as Ausbildungs Div Bayern
Oskar Blümm 26.3.45 to 1.4.45 sick
Rudolf Sintzenich 26.3.45 to 30.4.45


407. Div E- reformed 3/45 from part of 467th Repl. Div
Franz Fehn 26.3.45 to 28.4.45
(Max Ulich 30.3.45 to 1.4.45 mFb)

one of these two divisions (407, not Bayern) is shown z. Vfg. HGR. D in 12.4.45 OKH O/B
Mehner gives no commander for Division Bayern- can anyone come up with one?


467th Replacement Div (Div. Nr. 467)
Rudolf Sintzenich 25.4.44 to 26.3.45 part- or all- became new 407th Repl. Div
but still shows under XIII SS AK, 1. Armee in 12.4.45 OKH O/B- commander unk if it still existed


Best I can do so far- anyone else want to have a go? We need to ask Dieter about this. We could be beating our heads against the wall for weeks with the sparse documentation we have. Does anybody have "Die Deutsche Divisionen"?

Best regards,
Genstab

[Jan-Hendrik]

At the moment I think it would have been better not to "stumble" over this "407.Infantriedivision" in the other thread :roll:

I have no clue anymore .

Jan-Hendrik

[genstab]

The problem was caused by Mehner's putting Division 407 (A) and 407 (E) under the Infanterie category in "Die Deutsche Wehrmacht". He says that 407 (A) was Ausbildung and 407 (E) Einsatz.

Best regards,
Genstab

PS- I received an answer about an email in his forum from Dieter and mentioned we're beating our heads against the wall over here- maybe he'll have time to take mercy on us and look in.

[Jan-Hendrik]

It is getting better and better ....

According to the other Jan there were two Fehns , one Kdr. of this damn DivNr. and one General d.Gebirgstruppe

Jan-Hendrik

[genstab]

Right- Gustav was Gen d. Geb. Tr. and KG XV Gebirgs-Armeekorps while Franz Fehn was the GeMaj and Kdr 407. Div

Best regards,
Genstab

[Dieter Zinke]

Dieter,

I don't know if you have the time to look at the other AHF forums but we're having a really horrible time over on the Heer and Waffen-SS section with 407th and 467th Replacement Divisions and their commanders. One of us is going to ask for the mercy of your help sooner or later- lol!

I hope you are having a very happy new year so far and that it continues!

Best regards,
Bill McCroden
Genstab in Oregon

Hallo Bill,

also for you a happy and prosperous New Year.

The problems with the divisions Nr. 407 / 467 have been discussed (but not finally solved) at
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=92920

Dieter

[genstab]

Thank you, Dieter! As far as late 3/45 and early 4/45 go though it doesn't seem to affect my suggested commanders. Anyone have anything else? Nobody has "Die Deutschen Divisionen?

Best,
Genstab