105 mm french howitzer M-1934

[eppanzer]

Lithuanian army had 70 artillery pieces called "105 mm french howitzer M-1934" before WWII. Is it a version of the "Canon de 105mm C (L/17) Mle1935 Bourges"?

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

No, these are 2 different howitzers although they have close characteristics.

Canon de 105mm C (L/17) Mle1935 Bourges
Type : howitzer
Crew : 1 NCO + 6 men
Caliber : 105mm
Barrel length : 1760 mm
Weight in action : 1627 kg
Elevation : -5° to +45°
Traverse : 52°
Ready to fire in 5 minutes
Rate of fire : 15 rpm
HE Shell
Maximum range : 10500 m
Projectile weight : 15.6 kg
V° : 465 m/s
Used by Germans under the name 10.5cm leFH 325 (f)

Canon de 105mm C (L/20) Mle1934 Schneider
Type : howitzer
Crew : 1 NCO + 6 men
Caliber : 105mm
Barrel length : 2090 mm
Weight in action : 1722 kg
Elevation : -7° to +38.7°
Traverse : 39.6°
Ready to fire in 5 minutes
Rate of fire : 15 rpm
HE Shell
Maximum range : 10500 m
Projectile weight : 15.6 kg
V° : 465 m/s
Used by Germans under the name 10.5cm leFH324 (f)

On photos they have clearly different and caracteristical shapes.

Regards,

David

[eppanzer]

Tank a lot, David. One more question. Could the Canon de 105mm C (L/20) Mle1934 Schneider be towed by tractors?

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

Yes of course. In France the Mle1934 and Mle1935 105mm C howitzers were typically found in the divisional artillery regiments of the motorized/mechanized units (DIM, DLC, DLM or DCR).

For example the 242e RA from the 3e DIM which fought around Stonne was equipped with 105mm C Mle1934 howitzers, all towed by Unic P107 halftracks.
The 319e RATTT of the 3e DCR also operating in the area had also 105mm C howitzers (Bourges or Schneider ?) but I don't know what kind of tractors were used in that unit.

Typically the tractors used to tow these howitzers in France in 1940 were :
• Unic P107
• Laffly S15T

Eventually in several cases they could have been towed by
• Citroën-Kégresse P17 (but rather for 25mm AA guns, 47mm AT guns and 75mm field guns - 1442 available in September 1939)
• Laffly W15T (but intended for the 47mm AT guns - only 80 vehicles had been produced)

UNIC P107
3932 pieces of this halftracked artillery tractor were in service in 1940. Used to tow the 75mm and 105mm C field guns. One such tractor carried 72 shells (75mm) and 6-8 men (including 1 driver and the crew of the towed gun). In the 75mm Mle1897 batteries towed by Unic P107s, each gun had immediately 72 shells available plus those in the ammunition trucks. There were also an engineer version of the P107, an air force tractor version as well as 2 vehicles converted to radio trucks (ER30 / R30 radio sets) and used by the 1e DCR.
Weight : 3.55t (live load 1.5t + towed load 1.5t in off-road, on a road it can tow 10.0t)
Length : 4.85m
Width : 1.80m
Height : 2.30m
Maximum speed : 45 km/h (4 cylinders, 3460 cm3, 62 hp at 3200 rpm)

LAFFLY S15T
411 artillery tractors were in service in 1940. Used to tow the 75mm and 105mm C field guns.
Weight : 3.90t (live load 1.4t + towed load 1.8t)
Length : 4.70m
Width : 1.80m
Height : 2.35m
Maximum speed : 51 km/h (4 cylinders, 2300 cm3, 42 hp at 2800 rpm)

Regards,

David

[CyirlSh]

You are precisely sure, that in Lithuanian army there were " 105 mm french howitzer M-1934 ", instead of any other howitzers. For example, mle 1928 or mle 1919?

[eppanzer]

Yes, certainly, in Lithuanian army there were 105 mm french howitzer M-1934 "Schneider" (Source: "Artilerijos statutas" (Artillery statute/manual). Kaunas, 1938). 70 pieces M-1934, 110 75 mm Scneider M-1897, 12 18 pdr Vickers, 19 76,2 mm Putilov M-1902, 2 105 mm czech made guns vz.1??? (model 1935?), 9 75 mm Vickers AA guns, 151 20 mm Oerlicon and 150 20 mm Flak28 (Germany made Oerlicon?).

[CyirlSh]

I too read such information...
I can not find date of purchase of these guns in any way... And as were made only since 1938 - that would be interesting to compare these dates
Germans named these trophy guns " 10.5 cm lFH 323 (r) ", and this German name meets French " Canon Court de 105 M modele 1928 Schneider "
Can be all the same eat a mistake?

[jopaerya]

Hello All

The 10,5 cm l. Gebirgs Haubitze 323 (f) is the Canon de 10,5 cm
Montagne mle 1928 is a mountain gun maybe this helps .

Regards Jos

[Dadis]

Hi to all,

regarding Canon de 105mm C (L/20) Mle1934 Schneider - in Lithuanian "Artilerijos statutas" (Artillery statute/manual), Kaunas, 1938, we can find slightly different TD (technical data) of this howitzer:

Caliber: 105mm
Weight with limber: 2530 kg
Weight of limber (empty): 575 kg
Weight of limber (with 12 shells and 12 charges): 775 kg
Weight in action: 1755 kg
Shells
Light shell: 15,34 kg
Normal shell: 15,47 kg (load - 2,61 kg of TNT)
Heavy shell: 15,6 kg
Charges:
Ist charge
IInd charge
IIIrd charge
IVth charge
V°: 465 m/s (using IVth charge)
Maximum range: 11040 m (using IVth charge)
Elevation: -8° to +43°
Traverse: 40° (3°36' without splitting of trails)
Maximum towing speed - 40 km/h (using horses - 6 km/h)

As you can see, TD are different (weight in action, maximum range, elevation and traverse angles), so maybe we are talking about different guns or different models of the same gun?
Two more questions.
Talking about Mle 1934 and Mle 1935 howitzers David Lehmann mentioned in his post that "On photos they have clearly different and caracteristical shapes." Where I can find these photos? "Google" does not help (maybe I don't know how to formulate proper query).
I guess that TD of Mle 1934 and Mle 1935 howitzers used in this post were taken from some book. Could anyone tell me the author and title of this book? Maybe it is possible to download it in *.pdf format?
Or these TD were taken from some internet sources?
TIA.

BR,

Dadis

[David Lehmann]

Several photos. This gun was e.g. serviced by the 242e RA deployed in the Sy woods during the battle of Stonne.

[David Lehmann]

And now the Mle1935 Bourges howitzer, completely different shape.

[Dadis]

Thanks David - nice photos indeed.

[Dadis]

BTW David, here is the Canon de 105mm C (L/20) Mle1934 Schneider in Lithuanian Army service:



Copyright mind3e, Militaria Lituanica forum.

[David Lehmann]

Hi Dadis,

Many thanks for this beautiful photo.

Regards,

David