My position (for those who care)

[Davey Boy]

I seem to have upset quite a few people recently with my "anti-German propaganda". I do apologize if I caused any distress. And I would also like to make it clear that I do not consider all German soldiers murderers. I would like to put it on the record that I think a great many German soldiers were decent men.

However, I firmly believe that the German leadership fought the war in the east with a crusade mentality. To them, total victory was put above all else, including any sort of morality when dealing with enemy nations. At the same time, many German soldiers were sick animals who used the war to live out their hidden, twisted and perverted fantasies of murder, torture and rape. Every army includes such individuals. In fact, they're all around us in society. But because of the way the German leadership chose to lead the war, such men played a bigger part for the SS and Wehrmacht than is normally seen. Their qualities became very valuable for people like Himmler.

And this is what I try to highlight on these boards. The rest of you are free to focus on other aspects of the Third Reich: Such as the impressive achievements of the Wehrmacht on the battlefield; the men, like Rommel, who stood out as some of the greatest soldiers of the era; or the crimes perpetrated on German soldiers and civilians by the allies. I see nothing wrong with any of that. So why do some of you object to what I do here?

[Roberto]

GA,

So why do some of you object to what I do here?

I think the answer is rather obvious: because it challenges their lies of a lifetime.

Best,

Roberto

[Lars EP]

You are not alone.

I sincerely believe that the people who can defend the behaviour of the German armed forces on the Eastern Front, are either naive in the extreme or here in a political errand.

I've said it before: It was not Poland that invaded Germany! Neither was it the Soviet Union that invaded Germany.

So, G. A., it is those whom are offended that responds. The rest of us agrees, but normally don't see any reason to post: I agree.

Regards --- Lars EP

[Zapfenstreich]

IMHO there should be two major criteria for posting on this or any forum. Be as factual as you can and show respect to all the others on the forum.

What more can I say. I've never had any problems with any of your threads or posts.

LEBEN SIE WOHL!

Z

[Nordwall]

General Anders,

I personally don't have any problems with your postings, but it kinda hurts me if I have to read generalizations about the "nazi hordes" or giving a false color about history facts in favor of the "Germans bad - Allies good" picture.

This has not been directly directed at you, it's just how I think about this topic.

In your special case Gen. Anders, I think blaming the Germans for what they have done to your country's past (not my generation tho, don't forget to draw a line there), is your very good right to do.

BUT - do not forget that MILLIONS of ethnic German civilians died in "death walks" and wild, uncontrolled deportations from their former homelands in Poland, Czechia, Russia, Hungary and the Balcans by militia, civilians and Bolshevik soldiers after May 8th, 1945.
Millions were murdered there, children, old and wounded people, people who did NOT vote for Hitler in 1933 (they weren't even Germans by status!), and still had to suffer through Holocaust-like treatment caused by your ancestors (analogously), Gen. Anders.

Germany as a society just recently found itself able to deal with this horrible part of its past.
Before, people would take such arguements as "charging the victims of the Holocaust with the victims of the pre-WW2 mass-deportation of Germans", = a poor excuse for the guiltiness of Germany.
Unfortunately, the East European countries never felt like its their duty to deal with this bloody, dark part of their history.
Today, especially the younger, uninvolved generation of Germans shows interest for what happened in the pre-WW2 days. They do not want to view only half of the picture ("we caused the Holocaust, so we have to shut up"), but since they do not feel guilty for anything (why should they?), they begin to wonder why there has been no historical refurbishment of the -whole- story. It's like history forgot millions of people who died in the mud of East European roads.

In contrast to Germany, the East European countries never pulled themselves together and said "Sorry" to the victims of their murderious actions that were -no better- than what the die-hard Nazis did in WW2.


If you bring up your hatred against the Germans of that time again and again, do not forget what your own people did in these days.



- dahool

[Bad Tolz]

Your position?
I think it should be in a gulag.
After reading your posts,I think it may enlighten you on a few subjects.

[Ant!]

Quote from Gen Andres

"However, I firmly believe that the German leadership fought the war in the east with a crusade mentality. To them, total victory was put above all else, including any sort of morality when dealing with enemy nations. At the same time, many German soldiers were sick animals who used the war to live out their hidden, twisted and perverted fantasies of murder, torture and rape. Every army includes such individuals. In fact, they're all around us in society. But because of the way the German leadership chose to lead the war, such men played a bigger part for the SS and Wehrmacht than is normally seen. Their qualities became very valuable for people like Himmler."

This sounds more appropiate when talking about the USAF or RAF bomber command. You have to be rather twisted to order or take part of the bombing of Dresden or Cologne or Nagasaki. mass murdering civilians. War crimes.

Karl

[Davey Boy]

Quote from Gen Andres

"However, I firmly believe that the German leadership fought the war in the east with a crusade mentality. To them, total victory was put above all else, including any sort of morality when dealing with enemy nations. At the same time, many German soldiers were sick animals who used the war to live out their hidden, twisted and perverted fantasies of murder, torture and rape. Every army includes such individuals. In fact, they're all around us in society. But because of the way the German leadership chose to lead the war, such men played a bigger part for the SS and Wehrmacht than is normally seen. Their qualities became very valuable for people like Himmler."

This sounds more appropiate when talking about the USAF or RAF bomber command. You have to be rather twisted to order or take part of the bombing of Dresden or Cologne or Nagasaki. mass murdering civilians. War crimes.

Karl

No, you have to be conscripted and ordered to do it. Though I'm sure some of those men probably enjoyed burning Germans alive. You get that.

Still, you have to take into account that Germany was the aggressor in this war, and launched that crusade I was talking about. Your country had to be stopped ASAP, because whole nations and cultures were being wiped out. So in my opnion, the bombing was a necessary evil. I'm sure it cut the war by at least a few years, and saved more lives than it took, on both sides. Imagine if there was no bombing and the war kept going for another ten years. Imagine how pissed off the Soviets would've been if that happened. Maybe they wouldn't have left anyone alive in Berlin after that. And maybe there wouldn't have been a Germany today.

[Davey Boy]

Your position?
I think it should be in a gulag.
After reading your posts,I think it may enlighten you on a few subjects.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. But I can tell you that half of my family was sent to Siberia by the Russians, and had to survive a few winters near Lake Baikal. They even ate bears to do that. And I was born in Poland when it was still behind the Iron Curtain. So I do have a very good grasp of the evils of the Soviet Union and Communsim. Probably a much better grasp than you ever will.

[Indra Ross]

General Anders your point is well taken but, have you read about the Russian soldiers hanging every german soldier they caught in retreat on the nearest post.

I personally know of one German woman who at the age of 15, was kicked so severly by Russian soldiers that she suffers to this day from severe back pain and some things that are still to painful for her too discuss, from those non-battle wounds. Also another fellow who as a little boy was in Hanover when the entire city was bombed to rubble no higher then the desk that your computer is sitting on. To make matters worse when the towns people thought the bombing was over and came out to start re-building, another wave of bombers came over dropping phosphorous (incindiary) bombs.

I agree with NORDWALL remarks.
We know war is hell for all involved, so please no generalization.
I would like to learn on this forum, but with facts.

Thanks

[mike262752]

I agree with Nordwall.

Obviously some German soldiers commited cimes. But this notion that all Germans and only Germany commited such crimes makes me mad. However, A lot of that comes from 2 other WWII forums I used to be on but left because 90% of the people thought just that.

Anyway, I dont care if people talk about German war crimes, but painting the picture that they were all evil and the Allies were all good is just wrong.

"the German leadership fought the war in the east with a crusade mentality. To them, total victory was put above all else, including any sort of morality when dealing with enemy nations"

The war on the East was fought hard for all sides. All sides murdered POWs. The soviets were even doing it 10 years after the war was over. Saying that just the Germans fought without morality is far from the truth. Im sure you already know about the Russian crimes against Poland.

mike

[admfisher]

When Germany invaded Russia or anywhere in the east, he declared that these were subhumans. The SD, some of the SS and other units followed the actual fighters and then turned the invasion into a bloodbath.
In the Ukraine the Germans were happily recieved, to bad they made the mistake of turning them against themselves. How many extra soldiers, better crops and other things were lost. To bad.

But lets look at Stalin, when did he start his killing. It wasnt when he cleaned house on the army, in Stalingrad the soldiers were told that a desert would have his family also killed.
Katayn, another example.
The total pillaging of Berlin. Even the Russain High Command realised that the west seeing this would go crazy so they stopped it. THERE.

The killing continued under Stalin till he died himself.

[Davey Boy]

The war on the East was fought hard for all sides. All sides murdered POWs. The soviets were even doing it 10 years after the war was over. Saying that just the Germans fought without morality is far from the truth. Im sure you already know about the Russian crimes against Poland.

The Germans fought the war hard in the east because their aim was to totally conquer the Slavs and either kill, Germanize or deport the lot of them. They didn't merely fight the war to pacify a threat to Germany. If they had set out to do only that, maybe they would've won. Think about it.

Initially, the Russians, Poles and all the rest fought the war hard in the east because they had to, for pure survival. Then they fought it for sheer revenge. And there was plenty to avenge. My grandfather, who fought in the Red Army, passed areas of Poland where whole villages had been burned. Obviously, revenge is wrong, but these guys were just human. They were angry. Wouldn't you be? It's hard to argue with people like that. To them, all Germans were evil.

So I certainly think that there was a big difference in the way the two sides behaved in the east. I won't say that the Soviets were justified in what they did, but I can understand it. On the other hand, I just can't understand why the Germans unleashed such hell in the first place. Maybe some of you can explain that to me?

[admfisher]

Hitler before the invasion of Poland was calling everyone in the east a subhuman. To his thoughts they were only good for labour. Even when this meant work them to death.

Col Von Luck served in the Army on all fronts from 39 to 45 and he could not understand why Hitler ordered the elimination of all who could not be used for slave labout.

Maybe the reason for clearing the people from the occupied lands was part of the German Living Room.
When you need space you dont want the old owners hanging around waiting for there day to take it back.

[Nordwall]

@ General Anders

So you basically agree with the murderous crimes committed against ethnic Germans in the "wild expulsion" from their former homelands in East Europe, where roughly 5.8 million ethnic German *civilians* died due to the cruelty of the actions of East Europeans filled with rancor and hatred -
because it's just "human" to have a desire for bloody revenge?

Your weak attempt at justifying the civil crimes of your ancestors (again, meant analogously) easily explains your onesided point of view.

Six million Polish people died during WW2, not only from the hands of German soldiers, but also from the hands of Soviet people.
Almost the same ammount of ethnic German civilians died in the wild expulsion of 1945/1946.
Altogether, 11 million Germans died during WW2, of which 7 million died in the time of 1945-1950.

I'm glad that you're happy that you got your revenge. Blood has been answered with blood, and your ancestors have shown that they're, from an ethical point of view, no better than any SS murderer.
I hope that is what you wanted to achieve, because if it is not, there is only one conclusion one can draw here : Millions of civilians have been murdered in one of the most devastating expulsions of history, and history has simply forgotten these people. No remorse, no dealing with this topic in in East European countrie's schools, no knowledge of East European people about what their fathers and grandfathers did in these days.. Forgetting is the easiest solution.

And you're contributing to this, Gen. Anders, by making up simplified justifications and referring to the animal instinct that unfortunately still is present in human beings - an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth - blood for blood.



- John

«Kill the Germans, wherever you find them! Every German is our moral enemy.
Have no mercy on women, children, or the aged! Kill every German -- wipe them out!»
Illya Ehrenburg, leading Soviet propagandist