P-51 vs. German jets

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knightpins93
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P-51 vs. German jets

#1

Post by knightpins93 » 15 Feb 2006, 02:27

How well did the P-51 fare against german jets? I read that it could climb up to more than 41,000 feet and dive down to gain speed. I also read that Me-262 was slow to turn and not very manouverable. How much of an asset was the high altitude climb and manouverability of the P-51 against the Me-262? Also, if the He 280 had been produced, how would the P-51 have fared against it?

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Michael Emrys
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Re: P-51 vs. German jets

#2

Post by Michael Emrys » 15 Feb 2006, 03:20

knightpins93 wrote:How well did the P-51 fare against german jets?
Very well if they could catch them on landing approach or just after takeoff. The Me-262 didn't accelerate too well and as you note was not as maneuverable. The Germans had to resort to putting up a CAP of prop fighters over their airfields and approach lanes when the 262s were inbound to protect them from the Allied fighters.

Michael


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Re: P-51 vs. German jets

#3

Post by Huck » 17 Feb 2006, 17:49

Michael Emrys wrote:
knightpins93 wrote:How well did the P-51 fare against german jets?
Very well if they could catch them on landing approach or just after takeoff. The Me-262 didn't accelerate too well and as you note was not as maneuverable. The Germans had to resort to putting up a CAP of prop fighters over their airfields and approach lanes when the 262s were inbound to protect them from the Allied fighters.

Michael
Michael, I'm afraid that this is not quite correct.
Me-262 did not accelerate well only at take-off, but once in the air they accelerated faster than any piston engine fighter! This is because the thrust of an aircraft that uses propellers (be it a turboprop) decreases with speed continuously, whereas the thrust of a pure jet (like Jumo 004) is almost constant throughout its speed range. So, while Me-262 had rather low thrust at take-off (about the same thrust with a 2500HP piston engine in total) it produced around 6000HP (thrust HP) at 800km/h.

Me-262 was better suited to energy fighting tactics than any fighter at that time. The speed advantage, the excellent climb rate and acceleration, plus the amazing firepower (one 30mm hit was enough to down a fighter - Me-262 could fire 30mm shells at a rate of 2000 per minute!) made it a tremendous fighter, even though it was initially conceived as a destroyer. The maneuvrability was good, the turn rate competitive, though the turn radius suffered (because of the thin airfoil); roll rate was better than of any twin (save for the powered ailerons versions of P-38). Of course not all maneuvers worked that well as in a typical piston engine fighter, for instance Me-262 had hard time in making a split S bellow 10000ft - but there was no need for Me-262 pilots to use piston engine fighters tactics.

P-51 was no match for Me-262, not that escort fighters in general have ever showed competitive performance (except for speed and of course range).

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Erich
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#4

Post by Erich » 18 Feb 2006, 06:21

check through some of the older threads for some lively debate. the Me 262 was not as manueverable as what has been claimed, the P-51 could turn inside it's track and I have seen the US fighter cine films catching the 262 and firing upon it with devastating results, this is not on landing nor taking off.

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IRONHORSE
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#5

Post by IRONHORSE » 18 Feb 2006, 17:15

ME-262 30 MM RATE OF FIRE 2,000 ROUNDS PER MINUTE? I THINK MORE LIKE 600-650 ROUNDS PER MINUTE.

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#6

Post by Jon G. » 18 Feb 2006, 18:03

You should remember to multiply the c. 660 rpm of the Mk 108 with four :) That gives the Me 262 a ROF well in excess of 2000 RPM.

For armament, there is no contest between the Me 262 and the P-51 - each Mk 108 on the Me 262 offered ten times the destructive power of the .50 Browning on the Mustang, as this very comprehensive study from Tony Williams' website shows. The difference in armament also clearly shows the different roles intended for the two aircraft - six .50 MGs were adequate for shooting down a Me 262, while four Mk 108s are overkill against a fighter.

The Luftwaffe employed a special flight of the JV44 to protect Me 262s on take-off and landing. This unit was equipped with Fw 190 Ds with vividly coloured red undersides with white stripes in order to prevent friendly AA fire. I'm not sure if the Papageistaffel ('parrot squadron') term originated with the JV44, but their Fw 190s certainly deserved the term.

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IRONHORSE
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#7

Post by IRONHORSE » 18 Feb 2006, 19:09

YOU ARE RIGHT WITH 4 MK-108 BUT CONSIDERING 2 HAD 250 ROUNDS LOADED AND 2 WITH 200 ROUNDS LOADED
YOU ALSO HAVE TO CONSIDER THE TRAJECTORY AND LOW MUZZLE VELOCITY THE PILOTS HAD LITTLE TIME TO ADJUST
THEIR AIM BEFORE FLYING PAST THE TARGET AND BECOMING THE PREY

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#8

Post by Jon G. » 18 Feb 2006, 19:22

Yes, the Me 262 would run out of ammo long before a full minute had passed. Also, leading your target with cannon rounds weighing more than half a pound a piece seems excessive.

Still referring to the study on Tony Williams' site, the low muzzle velocity seemed to be the only real drawback of the Mk 108. High rate of fire and very high destructive power was a worthwhile purchase for the relatively low muzzle velocity.

Still, it's my impression that the Me 262 would be toast if it engaged in a dogfight with a P-51. The powerful armament of the Me 262 demonstrates that it wasn't built to engage fighters, but rather to take on bombers.

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IRONHORSE
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#9

Post by IRONHORSE » 18 Feb 2006, 19:26

I AGREE WITH YOU JON.
ALSO REMEMBER THE PILOT OF THE 262 HAD A CHOICE OF FIRING 2 GUNS OR ALL 4.
CHUCK

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Erich
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#10

Post by Erich » 19 Feb 2006, 20:16

ah but remember not all Me 262A-1a's were fitted with a two gun or four gun combination selector switch.

True this is what the Schwlabe was designed for : a viermottötter.

the popoise like rear attack only enabled several seconds of firing before the jet swooped through another US heavy pulk in front of it to do the same thing again and then hopeful it could remain unscathed on it's journey homeward a rather rare feat in spring of 45.

JV 44's Würger staffel was almost worthless as was the Doras of III./JG 54 for Kommando Nowotny's breif spell of a unit. The Dora pilots were simply overwhelmed.

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IRONHORSE
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#11

Post by IRONHORSE » 19 Feb 2006, 21:17

MY MISTAKE. THE ME-262 ONLY CARRIED 360 ROUNDS TOTAL OF 30 MM AMMO. 2 M-108'S WITH 100 ROUNDS AND 2 M-108'S WITH 80 ROUNDS. WITH SELECTION OF FIRING 2 CANNONS OR ALL 4 CANNONS.
SORRY
CHUCK

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#12

Post by M.Rausch » 19 Feb 2006, 22:41

Still, it's my impression that the Me 262 would be toast if it engaged in a dogfight with a P-51. The powerful armament of the Me 262 demonstrates that it wasn't built to engage fighters, but rather to take on bombers.
Why should a Me 262 pilot engage in a dogfight and give up his advantages? Boom and zoom in a team all the time. Me 262 formations were several times ordered to attack the fighter escorts to give Rammjäger formations a chance to attack bomber formations. And they were credited with multiple P-51 kill doing so.

There is also perhaps a wrong assumption about the ballistic qualities and differences to smaller calibres.

The 2 cm M-round fired by the MG 151/20 had a muzzle velocity of 775 m/s. 800 m were travelled in 2.003 s with a shell drop of 14.21 m and a remaining speed of 252 m/s.
The 3 cm M-round fired by the MK 108 had a muzzle velocity of 500 m/s. 800 m were travelled in 2.415 s with a shell drop of 23,67 m and a remaining speed of 211 m/s.
These values are for the air density at ground level. The higher the altitude, the better the values were.

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Ome_Joop
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#13

Post by Ome_Joop » 20 Feb 2006, 03:20

Not all Me-262's carried the same armament
Fot instance the Me 262A-1a/U1 (3 built) had two 20mm MG 151 cannon with 146 rounds each, two 30mm MK 103 cannon with 72 rounds each, and two 30mm MK 108 cannon with 66 rounds each!

http://www.stormbirds.net/images_varian ... photo4.jpg
http://www.stormbirds.net/images_varian ... photo1.jpg

http://www.stormbirds.net

DOn't know if it was more sucsesful ...but you can't really say that with only 3 aircraft!

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IRONHORSE
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#14

Post by IRONHORSE » 20 Feb 2006, 03:26

YOU ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW MANY .50 CAL DOES IT TAKE TO SHELL OUT A ME-262 ENGINE?

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Ome_Joop
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#15

Post by Ome_Joop » 20 Feb 2006, 04:43

YOU ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW MANY .50 CAL DOES IT TAKE TO SHELL OUT A ME-262 ENGINE?
I don't know if i get that question...but probable the same amount as a liquid cooled...just hit it on the right spot ...one bullit kill...especially those turbine blades...damage those and bye bye engine i reckon!!
But first you have to hit those engines.....
If engine damage was an issue...the P-51 should have had an aircooled radial.....almost indestructable 8-)

BTW what is with that yelling?

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