Losses in armoured technics in 1944. What Finnish estimation of losses in tanks and another armoured technics in fights in Finland and Kareliya, and also on border with Norway in 1944. My interest is the German, Soviet and Finnish losses. On the dear Finnish state, probably, there is a breakdown on types of the lost machines. It was already reported here about StuG and BT-42.Is there any information about BT-26 and other types of technics?
Best regards.
Losses in AFV in 1944?
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Alex Yeliseenko
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Alex Yeliseenko
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Hi,
At least one of the T-26 losses was due to friendly fire. It was a T-26 C (model 1939) and it was knocked out by a Finnish 75 mm AT gun. Two of the crew were killed. I'll post the details if I remember the book where the incident is described. I remember that there was also a photo of the tank after its destruction.
Regards,
JariL
At least one of the T-26 losses was due to friendly fire. It was a T-26 C (model 1939) and it was knocked out by a Finnish 75 mm AT gun. Two of the crew were killed. I'll post the details if I remember the book where the incident is described. I remember that there was also a photo of the tank after its destruction.
Regards,
JariL
Here is something more about it. IIRC around 20 Vickers/T-26 tanks was lost during the summer of 1944. Here is some of the losses:
26/6 1944
After 15.00 Platoon Nieminen (have to check wich platoon/company it was) had a loss of two Vickers/T-26 tanks to Soviet antitank-rifles.
At the Portinhoikka - Ihantala road, sometime just after 19.00, II/4./Ps.Pr. had a loss of one Vickers/T-26. It was knocked out by Soviet antitank-rifles.
27/6 1944
Around 04.00 1./Ps.Pr. stopped at the Portinhoikka - Ihantala road at a ”roadblock” made of Finnish soliders that had been KIA and then had been put in a pile on the road. Four, of wich one managed to retreat, of the companys Vickers/T-26 tanks was hit by Soviet antitank-rifles.
28/6 1944
After 19.00, II/5./Ps.Pr´s two Vickers/T-26 participated in a counterattack along the Saarela road. Both of the Finnish Vickers/T-26 tanks had to be abandond and left on the Soviet side of the frontline (will check further, but will remember these two was retaken next day, one was then burnt and the other damaged)
29/6 1944
Around 12.10 in the Soviet attack at Syökkäänlahti the Finnish defenders retreated to a line Hepolampi - Nuorlampi. During the retreat one StuG from 2./Ryn.Tyk.P collided with a Vickers/T-26 so it dropped down into a ditch, and a second Vickers/T-26 in the same sector lost one of its tracks. Both of the light-tanks had to be abandoned.
Moore in some days...
Regards
Esa K
26/6 1944
After 15.00 Platoon Nieminen (have to check wich platoon/company it was) had a loss of two Vickers/T-26 tanks to Soviet antitank-rifles.
At the Portinhoikka - Ihantala road, sometime just after 19.00, II/4./Ps.Pr. had a loss of one Vickers/T-26. It was knocked out by Soviet antitank-rifles.
27/6 1944
Around 04.00 1./Ps.Pr. stopped at the Portinhoikka - Ihantala road at a ”roadblock” made of Finnish soliders that had been KIA and then had been put in a pile on the road. Four, of wich one managed to retreat, of the companys Vickers/T-26 tanks was hit by Soviet antitank-rifles.
28/6 1944
After 19.00, II/5./Ps.Pr´s two Vickers/T-26 participated in a counterattack along the Saarela road. Both of the Finnish Vickers/T-26 tanks had to be abandond and left on the Soviet side of the frontline (will check further, but will remember these two was retaken next day, one was then burnt and the other damaged)
29/6 1944
Around 12.10 in the Soviet attack at Syökkäänlahti the Finnish defenders retreated to a line Hepolampi - Nuorlampi. During the retreat one StuG from 2./Ryn.Tyk.P collided with a Vickers/T-26 so it dropped down into a ditch, and a second Vickers/T-26 in the same sector lost one of its tracks. Both of the light-tanks had to be abandoned.
Moore in some days...
Regards
Esa K
...and, an old thread with some discussions and figures about Soviet losses in summer of 1944: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56705
regards
again
Esa K
regards
again
Esa K
BTW,
daughter of a veteran from 268th Rifle Division (Tali battle) passed me over an archive certificate for her father's award citation:
"...Ivan Kalashnikov, AT-rifle squad leader of 947th Rifle Regiment, 268th Rifle Division, rank: Sergeant, taking part in the Great Patriotic War from June 1941...
Leading his AT-rifle platoon in battles for railway station Tali on the Karelian Isthmus, comrade Kalashnikov personally knocked out an enemy's APC and with his squad destroyed nine Finnish soldiers during repelling of enemy's attacks.
Awarded with Order of Red Star according to battle order #026 of 268th Rifle Division of July 7, 1944."
So, the question is: were there any Finnish APCs/other soft-skinned vehicles at Tali or did the men and officers of 268th Rifles made some sort of mistake?
with best regards,
Bair
daughter of a veteran from 268th Rifle Division (Tali battle) passed me over an archive certificate for her father's award citation:
"...Ivan Kalashnikov, AT-rifle squad leader of 947th Rifle Regiment, 268th Rifle Division, rank: Sergeant, taking part in the Great Patriotic War from June 1941...
Leading his AT-rifle platoon in battles for railway station Tali on the Karelian Isthmus, comrade Kalashnikov personally knocked out an enemy's APC and with his squad destroyed nine Finnish soldiers during repelling of enemy's attacks.
Awarded with Order of Red Star according to battle order #026 of 268th Rifle Division of July 7, 1944."
So, the question is: were there any Finnish APCs/other soft-skinned vehicles at Tali or did the men and officers of 268th Rifles made some sort of mistake?
with best regards,
Bair
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Alex Yeliseenko
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This could happen probably. But as I know, finnish data say the other things. Maybe APC were just damaged and repaired later.daughter of a veteran from 268th Rifle Division (Tali battle) passed me over an archive certificate for her father's award citation:
"...Ivan Kalashnikov, AT-rifle squad leader of 947th Rifle Regiment, 268th Rifle Division, rank: Sergeant, taking part in the Great Patriotic War from June 1941...
Leading his AT-rifle platoon in battles for railway station Tali on the Karelian Isthmus, comrade Kalashnikov personally knocked out an enemy's APC and with his squad destroyed nine Finnish soldiers during repelling of enemy's attacks.
Awarded with Order of Red Star according to battle order #026 of 268th Rifle Division of July 7, 1944."
So, the question is: were there any Finnish APCs/other soft-skinned vehicles at Tali or did the men and officers of 268th Rifles made some sort of mistake?
with best regards,
-
Alex Yeliseenko
- Member
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: 25 Jan 2006, 16:40
- Location: RUSSIA
Around Tali station? It could be a Komsomol tractor, or an other towing vechicle for Anti Tank guns, during battle of village/town of Tali 18.D and JR 48 lost some of its AT-guns, will check if I have something about this. Is there a date when Ivan Kalashnikov and his squad was at Tali...?Bair wrote:So, the question is: were there any Finnish APCs/other soft-skinned vehicles at Tali or did the men and officers of 268th Rifles made some sort of mistake?
Regards
Esa K
I think the mentioned "APC" could be some armoured car or like Esa told more likely a Komsomolets tracked tractor used typically for towing AT guns (and heavy mortars?) in Finland. Finns didn't have any other vehicles which could be classed as "armoured personnel carriers".
The sole T-50 tank Finns used survived the war and is on display at Parola Armour Museum. As far as I know the Finnish T-37/38 tanks were not used in combat duties in Finland after 1941. They were already in 1941 mainly used in towing duties but their later "career" is somewhat unknown to me. I think most of them served as training vehicles (there were two modifications of which one looked like a miniature T-34 and another like KV-1), in security duties (north from Lake Ladoga) and also in certain signals and engineer units which needed "amphibious tractors".
The sole T-50 tank Finns used survived the war and is on display at Parola Armour Museum. As far as I know the Finnish T-37/38 tanks were not used in combat duties in Finland after 1941. They were already in 1941 mainly used in towing duties but their later "career" is somewhat unknown to me. I think most of them served as training vehicles (there were two modifications of which one looked like a miniature T-34 and another like KV-1), in security duties (north from Lake Ladoga) and also in certain signals and engineer units which needed "amphibious tractors".
Hi again, one more small piece from the gigantic Tali-Ihantala puzzle...
From: Virtanen, Kari: Jalkaväkirykmentti 48 jatkosodassa, Keuruu 1986. page s. 334-339 (titel translates to: Infantry Regiment 48 in the Contiunation War)
22/6 1944
Around 11.45 the Soviet troops attacked the lines of I/JR 48 south of Tali after a heavy artillery barrage, and got imidiately a breaktrough. I/JR 48 started to withdraw to the north side of Talinjoki (Tali-river). The bridge over the river had collapsed in the Soviet artillery fire so 26.Tyk.K (the 26.(antitank) gun company) had to leave all of its 75 mm AT-guns behind, after a duell with Soviet armour where they managed to knock out/hit four Soviet tanks. Also 14./JR 48 ([AT-] gun company of JR 48) had to left its four light AT-guns behind.
No mention in Virtanen 1986 wich towing vechicles the mentioned companies had, but as Harri said, the Komsomolets (was a little to quick with my naming of the vechile last...
) tractors was mainly used by the AT-gun companies as towing vechicles, so if I had to put a bet on this (with no more info than this at the moment), I would put my money on that I. Kalashnikov knocked out a ”Komso” from 26.Tyk.K...
Regards
Esa K
From: Virtanen, Kari: Jalkaväkirykmentti 48 jatkosodassa, Keuruu 1986. page s. 334-339 (titel translates to: Infantry Regiment 48 in the Contiunation War)
22/6 1944
Around 11.45 the Soviet troops attacked the lines of I/JR 48 south of Tali after a heavy artillery barrage, and got imidiately a breaktrough. I/JR 48 started to withdraw to the north side of Talinjoki (Tali-river). The bridge over the river had collapsed in the Soviet artillery fire so 26.Tyk.K (the 26.(antitank) gun company) had to leave all of its 75 mm AT-guns behind, after a duell with Soviet armour where they managed to knock out/hit four Soviet tanks. Also 14./JR 48 ([AT-] gun company of JR 48) had to left its four light AT-guns behind.
No mention in Virtanen 1986 wich towing vechicles the mentioned companies had, but as Harri said, the Komsomolets (was a little to quick with my naming of the vechile last...
) tractors was mainly used by the AT-gun companies as towing vechicles, so if I had to put a bet on this (with no more info than this at the moment), I would put my money on that I. Kalashnikov knocked out a ”Komso” from 26.Tyk.K...Regards
Esa K
And, an other little piece of info....
Number of Vickers/T-26 tanks in Finnish Army. From: Appendix 5 in: Muikku, Esa & Purhonen, Jukka: Suomalaiset panssarivaunut 1918 - 1997 : The Finnish armoured vehicles 1918 - 1997, Tampere 1998. Page 191.
-------------------------------1/6 1944----------------------1/12 1944
Vickers--------------------------22--------------------------------19
T-26 m1931---------------------2-----------------------------------1
OT-26----------------------------1-----------------------------------1
T-26 m1933---------------------63--------------------------------47
T-26 m1937/m1939------------36--------------------------------31
T-26T-----------------------------2----------------------------------2
Just then to figure out of wich of them was was in working condition, and to try to pinpoint wich of the tanks was destroyed in battle (by tanks, antitank rifles, at-guns, mines) and wich of them was losses due to mechanical problems...
Working on parts of it...
Regards
Esa K
Number of Vickers/T-26 tanks in Finnish Army. From: Appendix 5 in: Muikku, Esa & Purhonen, Jukka: Suomalaiset panssarivaunut 1918 - 1997 : The Finnish armoured vehicles 1918 - 1997, Tampere 1998. Page 191.
-------------------------------1/6 1944----------------------1/12 1944
Vickers--------------------------22--------------------------------19
T-26 m1931---------------------2-----------------------------------1
OT-26----------------------------1-----------------------------------1
T-26 m1933---------------------63--------------------------------47
T-26 m1937/m1939------------36--------------------------------31
T-26T-----------------------------2----------------------------------2
Just then to figure out of wich of them was was in working condition, and to try to pinpoint wich of the tanks was destroyed in battle (by tanks, antitank rifles, at-guns, mines) and wich of them was losses due to mechanical problems...
Working on parts of it...
Regards
Esa K
And a little more from tha same appendix as above, Muikku & Purhonen 1998, page 191.
T-37A: Looks like all of them was taken out of use allready in 1942/1943
T-38 and t-38M-2: 1/6 1944 theres was 19 in service, and 31/12 1944 there was still three + 9 had been coverted to what was designated as T-38-34 (the training vechiles Harri mentioned above that was resembling of a T-34) and 3 had been converted to T-38-KV (training vechicles that resembled of a KV-I).
again
regards
Esa K
T-37A: Looks like all of them was taken out of use allready in 1942/1943
T-38 and t-38M-2: 1/6 1944 theres was 19 in service, and 31/12 1944 there was still three + 9 had been coverted to what was designated as T-38-34 (the training vechiles Harri mentioned above that was resembling of a T-34) and 3 had been converted to T-38-KV (training vechicles that resembled of a KV-I).
again
regards
Esa K