Air combats during Operation Torch

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maxs75
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G.B. II/32

#1

Post by maxs75 » 24 Mar 2006, 21:48

Bomber Squadrons
Groupement de Bombardement 11 (Colonel de Lahoulle)
G.B. I/22 (11x Lioré et Olivier 451) at Rabat et Salé
G.B. I/23 (13x Lioré et Olivier 451) at Marrakech
G.B. II/23 (13x Lioré et Olivier 451) at Meknès
G.B. I/32 (11x Douglas DB-7) at Casablanca



Reconnaissance Squadrons
G.R. I/22 (13x Lioré et Olivier 451) at Rabat et Salé
G.R. I/52 (13x Potez 63.11) at Marrakech
David,
thanks for your post.
I have a question for You.
You listed GB I/22 twice (for both Bomber and recce units), and you don't list GB II/32.
This web site http://niehorster.orbat.com/020_france/ ... 8/air.html does. Is that a mistyping, or do you have different sources?

Thanks

Max

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#2

Post by David Lehmann » 24 Mar 2006, 22:13

Hello Max,

I don't remember anymore from which book or source I had that ...

Mr Niehorster uses I think the information from this website AFAIK :
http://france1940.free.fr/vichy/ada_afn.html

Here we have indeed :
G.B. I/23 (13x Lioré et Olivier 451) ar Marrakech (Cdt Frandon)
G.B. II/23 (13x Lioré et Olivier 451) at Meknès (Cdt Vénot)
G.B. I/32 (13x Douglas DB-7) at Casablanca (Cdt Baland)
G.B. II/32 (13x Douglas DB-7) at Agadir (Cdt Besnard)

In Militaria HS n° 20 - Opération Torch novembre 1942 - La campagne d'Afrique du Nord (1) by Yves Buffetaut, who is generally a good source, I have concerning the bombers in Morocco :
G.B. I/22 (11x Lioré et Olivier 45) at Rabat et Salé
G.B. I/23 (13x Lioré et Olivier 451) at Marrakech
G.B. II/23 (13x Lioré et Olivier 45) at Meknès
G.B. I/32 (11x Douglas DB-7) at Casablanca
G.B. II/32 (13x Lioré et Olivier 451) at Casablanca

Reconnaissance :
G.R. I/22 (13x Lioré et Olivier 451) at Rabat et Salé
G.R. I/52 (13x Potez 63.11) at Marrakech

The website seems to miss the G.B. I/22 ... or it is a squadron that has once converted from bomber to reconnaissance (or inversely ? and when ?) ... I don't know exactly, I am sorry. I would have to make more researches in other books to give you a better answer. I hope someone more skilled in the FAF in North Africa in 1942 will add information.

Regards,

David


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#3

Post by maxs75 » 27 Mar 2006, 19:57

G.B. I/22 (11x Lioré et Olivier 45) at Rabat et Salé
G.R. I/22 (13x Lioré et Olivier 451) at Rabat et Salé
David,

AFAIK in french air forces exists only one escadre with the same number. That escadre can be a fighter or bomber or transport unit.
Something like USAAF during ww2: the group with number 22 was a Bomber Group, number 23 was a fighter group and so on.
Anyway I'm not an expert about this matter. Can anyone confirm that?
And I believe that I/22 identifies a unit without needing the unit type (i.e. G.R. or G.B.).
Is it possible that I/22 at Rabat et Salé is listed twice but it was the same unit?

Best
Max

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#4

Post by David Lehmann » 27 Mar 2006, 20:50

Hello Max,

I have looked more completely at our question :)

The I/22 at Rabat-Salé was indeed first a reconnaissance group. however I have found it was equipped with Martin 167F aircraft. This group begins its transformation as bomber group on May 1942 with LeO 451 aircraft. On 8th November half of the planes are lost on the ground.

Group commander : Commandant Breyton

Source : Aero Journal special issue n°6 from March 2004
"le bombardement français - volume 2 - 1940/1945".

Hopes this answers our issue. We have only one I/22 indeed.

Regards,

David

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#5

Post by maxs75 » 28 Mar 2006, 20:00

David,
thanks very much.
And, IIRC, I/22 became a B-26 unit in 1944. Did it continue to fly LeO 451 till then?

Max

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#6

Post by David Lehmann » 28 Mar 2006, 20:37

Hello Max,

Concerning the GB I/22 "Maroc" :

Most of the planes are lost during operation Torch. The GB I/22 is reconstituted with stored LeO 451 and several Martin 167F which are transfered to the unit. Men from GR I/52 (disbanded on December 30, 1942) are also reinforcing the bomber group.

On February 3, 1943 the GB I/22 is is commanded by Commandant Esparre and moves to Oued Zem on the 18th.

On April 20, 1943 four LeO 451s are detached to "groupement de bombardement n°8" (including 29 LeO 451s). This groupement takes part to the last stage of the Tunisian campaign and makes 97 sorties aduring 23 missions between March 15 and May 5, 1943 (mainly against the German air bases of Sfax, La Sebala, La Marsa and Tunis el-Aouina). These 4 LeO 451s return to Oued Zem on May, 27.

On the 15th of June 1943, the GB I/22 moves to Rabat and Esparre is replaced by Albertus on August 19. During this time 3 crews are under transformation to fly on B26 aircraft.

On September 15, the group moves to Telegma and is then called GBM I/22 (groupe de bombardement moyen - medium bomber group).

The first aircraft are exhausted B26B models. They arrived on the 18th of October at Châteaudun-du-Rhunel.

On December 29, the men alone are transferred to Cagliari (Sardinia). Attached to 42nd bombardment wing. The GBM I/22 joins 4 US B26 groups on Villacidro air base beginning March 1944. All 14 planes are available on March 14, 1944.

The first attack mission is launched on March 28, 1944 against Elbe island (6 aircraft). Many missions will follow and target the communication lines and especially the bridges in northern Italy (operation "Strangle").

The ex-Vichy groups fight against the axis first with their original French aircrafts and later with US (6 medium bomber groups - B26) and British (2 heavy bomber groups - Handley Page Halifax) planes. They join therefore in the battle the groups and planes of the previously called Free French Air Force. The "Free French" groups (the first planes operated already in July 1940) had Glenn Martin 167Fs and then Bristol Blenheim Mk.IVs, Martin Maryland Mk.Is, Boston Mk.IIIs / Mk.IVs and also Mitchel Mk.IIIs planes.

To summarize roughly, the French air force in 1944-1945 :

In UK :
- 4 fighter groups (Alsace -Sqn 341-, Ile-de-France -Sqn 340-, Cigognes -Sqn 329- and Berry -Sqn 345-)
- 3 bomber groups (Lorraine, Tunisie and Guyenne) - the Lorraine is the Free French group
- 2 transport groups (Artois and Picardie)

In USSR :
- 1 fighter group (Normandie-Niemen -GC.3-)

Under USAF and RAF command in North Africa, Sicily, Corsica, France etc.
- 9 fighter groups (Nice -Sqn 326-, Corse -Sqn 327-, Provence -Sqn 328-, Travail, Roussillon, Champagne, Navarre, Lafayette, Dauphiné and Ardennes)
- 6 bomber groups (Bretagne, Maroc, Gascogne, Bourgogne, Sénégal and Franche-Comté)
- 2 reconnaissance groups (Belfort, Savoie)
- 1 transport group (Anjou)

446 Thunderbolts were delivered to the Free French air force based in North Africa. They equipped the following units :
- GC II/6 Travail
- GC II/5 Lafayette
- GC II/3 Dauphine
- GC I/4 Navarre
- GC I/5 Champagne
- GC III/3 Ardennes
- GC III/6 Roussillon

RAF French Spitfire squadrons :
Squadron Spitfire Marks Flown Squadron codes
N° 326 V, VIII, IX 91
N° 327 V, VIII, IX 7E
N° 328 V, VIII, IX S8
N° 329 V, IX, XVI 5A
N° 340 II, V, IX, XVI GW
N° 341 V, IX, XVI NL
N° 345 V, IX, XVI 2Y

Regards,

David

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#7

Post by maxs75 » 30 Mar 2006, 20:24

David,
thanks very much for your answer.
You listed 7 units equipped with P-47, but I believe that only 6 were so equipped during WW2.
AFAIK 3ème EC was made by I/4, I/5 and III/6,
4ème EC was made by II/5, II/3 and III/3 all with P-47,
but II/6 (5ème EC) still flew P-39Q on VE day.
Soon thereafter the 5ème EC got P-63 instead P-39.
See http://eisenbei.club.fr/A_ec_1_5.htm about II/6.

David, I see that You have many info about french air units during WW2.
I'm trying to complete the air OOB of the Mediterranean air Command at the time of opreation Husky (Sicily invasion, july 1943).
Could you help me with the French flying units?
I think that they were mainly part of the NWACAF.
In Tunisia I've found II/5 with P-40L, I/3 with Spitfire V/D.520 and II/7 with Spit. V.
In Maroc there were III/6, I/5 and I/4 with P-39N, and II/3 with D.520 in Algeria.
But they are all web sources only, and probably the list is not complete.


Thanks in advance

Max

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#8

Post by PT Dockyard » 05 Apr 2006, 04:54

Did the French use the D-520s against the Axis in Tunisia?

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#9

Post by David Lehmann » 05 Apr 2006, 10:24

Hello PT Dockyard,

If I am sure that e.g. LeO 451 bombers were used against Axis troops in Tunisia I am really not sure that Dewoitine D.520s were used ... I don't think so.

After the allied landing in North Africa, the Germans invaded unoccupied France and seized many Dewoitine D.520s. The Germans transferred D.520s to 2 Luftwaffe fighter training units (JG103 and JG105). They were highly praised by Luftwaffe crews for their exceptional manoeuvrability but on the other side there were many accidents because it was very different from the German planes. The Germans gave D.520s to Bulgaria and Italy also.

Bulgaria used them operationally against the US 9th Air Force. Most of these were lost in combat.
The Regia Aeronautica used a total of 76 D.520s during WW2. About 10 were in use after the French armistice of 25 June 1940 and 66 entered in service after 24 February 1943. In exchange Italy had given to Germany some captured Lioré-et-Olivier LeO.451 and a Douglas DC-3. The D.520s served in these Gruppi : 8°, 2°, 167°, 3°, 13°, 24°, 60°, 59°, 22°, 161°. On 1st March 1943 for example, the Italian pilot Maggiore Minguzzi downed a B-24 while flying a D.520.

The French Interior Forces (FFI) fomed the "Premier Groupe de Chasse FFI" (Groupe Doret) with 2 D.520 squadrons in 1944. They were used against German pockets.

Regards,

David

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#10

Post by maxs75 » 06 Apr 2006, 00:05

maxs75 wrote: David, I see that You have many info about french air units during WW2.
I'm trying to complete the air OOB of the Mediterranean air Command at the time of opreation Husky (Sicily invasion, july 1943).
Could you help me with the French flying units?
I think that they were mainly part of the NWACAF.
In Tunisia I've found II/5 with P-40L, I/3 with Spitfire V/D.520 and II/7 with Spit. V.
In Maroc there were III/6, I/5 and I/4 with P-39N, and II/3 with D.520 in Algeria.
But they are all web sources only, and probably the list is not complete.
David,
do you have some info?

Thanks
Max

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#11

Post by David Lehmann » 06 Apr 2006, 21:42

Hello Max,

I am really not sure I can help. My favorite period is 1935-1940 and the aircraft part is anyway not my strong point.

I have spent several hours trying to make it also more clear what were the French air unit between 1940 and 1945. I tried to summarize everything in this thread :
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=98874

Of course it's not perfect but I will not be able to offer much more time on it.

Concerning the MAAF I have the enclosed scan, but it is only for August 1944 and not July 1943. It is from the magazine "Le Fana de l'Aviation" - special issue n°15 (July 2001). With (F) are indicated where the French units are.

Nonetheless, if I use what I have found : I have always tried to indicate the date when the unit is really operational (it was sometimes formed/created months before).

If we take the date of July 1943 what could be really available in this listing ?

GB I/25 "Tunisie"
GB II/23 "Guyenne"
--> Halifax heavy groups, not used in the Mediterranean area I think

GBM I/22 : already operationnal in April 1943 but only with the LeO.451s. In July 1943 the unit is under transformation on B-26s.

GC II/5 "Lafayette" : ok
GC II/7 "Nice" : ok
GR I/33 "Belfort" : ok
GR II/33 "Savoie" : ok

Perhaps also Fleet Air Arms units ???

Finally if we talk of really French units I have the feeling that only the 4 ones listed previously might have taken part to Operation Husky. But we would still better find a detailed OOB for the allied air component of this operation.

Regards,

David
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#12

Post by dibo » 06 Apr 2006, 22:32

David Lehmann wrote:Bulgaria used them operationally against the US 9th Air Force. Most of these were lost in combat.
Check again your sources :? :roll:

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#13

Post by David Lehmann » 06 Apr 2006, 23:30

Hello,

Thanks for your very kind "smileys" but according to the Docavia book about the Dewoitine D.520 by Raymond Danel and Jean Cuny the Dewoitine was indeed used by the Bulgarians.

In 1942, the Bulgarian government took contact with Vichy to buy Bloch MB.151 planes. The contract was signed but the Germans blocked the delivery of the planes.

The attack of the Ploesti oil facilities launched by US bombers which crossed Bulgaria to reach Rumania without concern leads them to change their mind.

In 1943 therefore, the few Bf.109E and Avia B.354 from 6th Bulgarian Regiment (Orliak) are at first reinforced by 29 Bf.109 G2 and 24 Czech Avia B.315. The delivery of the last ones had also been blocked by the Germans previously.

In March 1943, the Germans promised to deliver 150 D.520s to Bulgaria - a first batch of 96 is planned for May 1943.

During Summer 1943, 100 D.520s are starting to be received in Nancy-Tromblaine (France) by Bulgarian pilots who had previously been trained on D.520 aircraft.

In August 1943, 166 B-24s from 9th US Air Force attacked Ploesti for the 2nd time. This time 3 of them had been down by the Bf.109 of 6th Orliak.

The first D.520s arrived in Karlovo in September 1943.

In November, B-25s from 12th US Air Force and B-24s from 15th US Air Force, escorted by P-38 fighters, attacked the Bulgarian air bases and air facilities.

In December, 31 B-24s escorted by P-38s attacked communication lines near Sofia. They were intercepted by 30 Bulgarian fighters, mostly D.520s. 11 Bulgarian fighters were lost against apparently only 2 P-38s.

On January 10, 1944, the crews of the B-17s and their P-38 escort claim 28 victories against the 40 Bulgarian fighters which were engaged against them. The authors indicate that they are doubtful about these information but I don't know if it is about the claim or about the number of Bulgarian fighter that could have been engaged.

Between January and April 1944, the D.520s were replaced as frontline fighters by Me.109 G6s (80 given by the Luftwaffe).

Several D.520s fighters remained nonetheless in service until the arrival of the Soviet Army. The Bulgarian Air Force was reorganized and equipped with Yak fighters. The few D.520s still operational were then used for training until the beginning of the 1950's.

That is what is in the book, I cannot be more precise ... despite the fact that the Bulgarian D.520s fought perhaps an other unit that the 9th Air Force (what I said when writing this simple line in my previous mail) I see at the moment no reason to doubt from this source unlike you give us more elements. It's not like websites talking mistakenly about D.520s in Rumania; it seems to be documented.

Regards,

David

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#14

Post by dibo » 09 Apr 2006, 11:26

David Lehmann wrote:Hello,

Thanks for your very kind "smileys" but according to the Docavia book about the Dewoitine D.520 by Raymond Danel and Jean Cuny the Dewoitine was indeed used by the Bulgarians.

In 1942, the Bulgarian government took contact with Vichy to buy Bloch MB.151 planes. The contract was signed but the Germans blocked the delivery of the planes.

The attack of the Ploesti oil facilities launched by US bombers which crossed Bulgaria to reach Rumania without concern leads them to change their mind.

In 1943 therefore, the few Bf.109E and Avia B.354 from 6th Bulgarian Regiment (Orliak) are at first reinforced by 29 Bf.109 G2 and 24 Czech Avia B.315. The delivery of the last ones had also been blocked by the Germans previously.

In March 1943, the Germans promised to deliver 150 D.520s to Bulgaria - a first batch of 96 is planned for May 1943.

During Summer 1943, 100 D.520s are starting to be received in Nancy-Tromblaine (France) by Bulgarian pilots who had previously been trained on D.520 aircraft.

In August 1943, 166 B-24s from 9th US Air Force attacked Ploesti for the 2nd time. This time 3 of them had been down by the Bf.109 of 6th Orliak.

The first D.520s arrived in Karlovo in September 1943.

In November, B-25s from 12th US Air Force and B-24s from 15th US Air Force, escorted by P-38 fighters, attacked the Bulgarian air bases and air facilities.

In December, 31 B-24s escorted by P-38s attacked communication lines near Sofia. They were intercepted by 30 Bulgarian fighters, mostly D.520s. 11 Bulgarian fighters were lost against apparently only 2 P-38s.

On January 10, 1944, the crews of the B-17s and their P-38 escort claim 28 victories against the 40 Bulgarian fighters which were engaged against them. The authors indicate that they are doubtful about these information but I don't know if it is about the claim or about the number of Bulgarian fighter that could have been engaged.

Between January and April 1944, the D.520s were replaced as frontline fighters by Me.109 G6s (80 given by the Luftwaffe).

Several D.520s fighters remained nonetheless in service until the arrival of the Soviet Army. The Bulgarian Air Force was reorganized and equipped with Yak fighters. The few D.520s still operational were then used for training until the beginning of the 1950's.

That is what is in the book, I cannot be more precise ... despite the fact that the Bulgarian D.520s fought perhaps an other unit that the 9th Air Force (what I said when writing this simple line in my previous mail) I see at the moment no reason to doubt from this source unlike you give us more elements. It's not like websites talking mistakenly about D.520s in Rumania; it seems to be documented.

Regards,

David
OK. Fair enough....American sources :roll:

Here is the story of Dewoitine - 520 from the Bulgarian side.

By late 1942 the Bulgarian Air Force was quite outdated. As fighters it had 19 BF 109E, 72 Avia B-534, 12 to 20 PZL P.24, 12 He-51 and 12 Ar-65. Apart from the Messerschmitts none of these represented any real threat to the Allied bombers that started to show up above Bulgaria.
So in the beginning of 1943 the Bulgarian Minister of War presented a demand to Germany for supply of 157 new planes, incl. 54 fighters (BF 109G). Bulgaria actually received 23 BF109G. Instead of the remaining 31 BF 109G, the Germans offered 100 De-520. Bulgaria agreed and requested to receive as well the 20 Bloch MB.152C, that were contracted before the French capitulation in May 1940. However Germany refused the latter and Bulgaria received only 98 De-520 (some sources claim even 89 DE-520 supplied), as well as 12 Avia B-135.
The Dewoitines started to arrive in the summer of 1943. These were flown by German and French pilots to Bulgarian airfield at Karlovo. At least 3 of the planes during these flights escaped with French pilots to Switzerland. The remaining planes were supplied to 2/6 Fighter Orliak (Wing). The 3/6 was armed with BF 109Gs and 1/6 was still armed with Avia B-534s.
On 1 August 1943 the infamous operation Tidal Wave took place. Bulgarian fighters from 1/6 and 3/6 (2/6 was still not operational with the De-520) engaged the American bombers and downed 4 of them.
2/6 was meanwhile training hard. It had a number of flight incidents, where a number of planes were lost. Some of the incidents were suspected to have been caused by sabotages (both by French manufacturers and Bulgarian communist groups within the technical staff).
The Bulgarian pilots opinions about the DE-520 were mixed. Many liked the excellent maneurability and the 20mm gun. Some were critical about the speed which was insufficient by the 1943 standards and the 4 Low-Calibre Machine Guns, which were next to useless against the heavily armoured Allied bombers. Anyway in capable hands the plane proved to be more than a match to the P-38.
In October 1943 the 2/6 was declared operational. It had 3 squadrons and a staff wing with about 30 to 45 pilots and 50 De-520 and was based in Karlovo. Later one of the squadrons (662nd) was transfered to Vrazhdebna, near Sofia and was attached to 3/6.
The first combat engagement was on 10.12.1943. The American 15th Air Army raided Sofia with 50-60 B-24s and 60 P-38s. The Royal Bulgarian Air Force engaged with 17 Me-109s from 3/6 and 24 De-520s. The 2/6 was late to respond and had a meagre result - 1 suspected bomber claim and 1 De-520 lost.
Second combat engagement - 20.12.1943. This time 50 B-24 and 50-60 P-38 against 16 Me-109s and 24 De-520s. This time 2/6 was more successful - 1 bomber was downed, 1 was heavily damaged and 3 P-38 were downed. 1 De-520 was damaged. 3/6 downed 3 P-38s and 2 B-24s and heavily damaged 4 B-24s and 1 P-38s, losing 2 Me-109s (one as a result of ramming a B-24).A number of ME-109 were damaged.
Third combat engagement - 10.01.1944. 180 B-17 and B-24 and 100 P-38 were intercepted over Sofia by 16 Me-109s from 3/6, 23 De-520s from 2/6, 30 German Bf-109s and unknown number of DE-520s from 1/6 and 4/6. 2/6 downed 6 bombers and damaged a P-38 and lost 2 De-520s. 4/6 lost 1 De-520 and downed a bomber. 3/6 downed three P-38 and damaged several others without own losses. The Germans lost 4 Me-109. Their victoires are unknown.
Starting from January 1944 started to transfer to Me-109G. Nevertheless DE-520s are still flown until April 1944. 2 DE-520s were lost on 17 April 1944, fighting P-51s. After that De-520s were used only for training.
All in all DE-520 from 2/6 had 9 bombers and 3 fighters as confirmed kills. 5 De-520s were lost.
1/6 was rearmed with De-520s in late 1943. In January 1944 it had only 14 De-520. On 04.01.1944 there is a unconfirmed claim for a bomber downed. On 10.01.1944 it lost a fighter a downed a bomber. On 30.03.1944 it participated in the fight with 28 De-520 (There were also 6 DE-520 from 2/6, 39 BF-109 from 3/6 and 2/6 and 4 Avia B-135 from the Flight School). The confirmed total Bulgarian kills were 4 B-24 and 3 P-38 with no own losses.
4/6 was formed in January-February 1944. It did not had any notable success during the bombings - all in all - only 3 bombers were damaged. It lost 1 De-520.
In June 1944 1/6 and 4/6 were in practice destroyed by two massive American bomber strikes against their Karlovo airfield. Several dozens of planes (mostly old trainers, but also many De-520s) were lost on the ground. 1/6 receved all remaining planes and the pilots from 4/6 (which was disbanded) and by 30.08.1944 it had 62 De-520s. De-520s from 1/6 participated in the war against the Germans in 09-11.1944 over Macedonia and Serbia acting as reconnaissance, fighter escort and ground attack plane. 7 De-520s were lost from flak, 4 were heavily damaged and 13 were lightly damaged. 1/6 claimed destroying 2 railway stations, 1 train, 21 cars and trucks, 6 arty batteries, 1 tank and 1 bus.

N.B. - Confirmed kills means the plane wreckage has been found.

Sources:
Milanov Yordan, The Aviation of Bulgaria during the Wars 1912-1945 Vol. 2 Sofia 1997
Aero Sviat Magazine - Vol. 7 and 8 - The Dewoitine D.520 Fighter ISSN 1311-3046

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#15

Post by David Lehmann » 09 Apr 2006, 12:25

Hello Dibo,

Many thanks for this constructive post full of details :) It's very interesting !
From your first post in the thread I thought you meant that the Bulgarians never used the D.520.

Regards,

David

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