''Onisko buckets'' ???

[varjag]

In C-F Geust's ''Red Stars 7'' the author mentions a Russian bomb-container called ''Onisko-bucket''...a very primitive tin bucket - in Russian parlance known as ''ABK-1 container'' - a picture.....

http://forum.skalman.nu/viewtopic.php?f ... &start=105

- and supposedly loaded with light incendiary bombs - AO-2½ kg's.The picture shows two of them attached to a cockpit in a U-2. Now this, a loose bunch of bombs in a bucket, seems to me very similar to Italian technology applied over Libya in 1912....... :roll:
Can anyone tell more about this device and possible operational use in the Winter War?
Geust's book also mentions severe risks at moment of dropping these bomb-containers - resulting in loss and damage of SB bombers due to premature ignition of the bombs.
Now, I cannot visualise an SB-crew chucking these things from a bucket -- ''out the window''......But have a look at this;

http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20003-3.htm

...scroll down - and find another thingo, also called ''ABK-1 casette''.....

Kasett ABK-1.jpg (38.08 KiB) Viewed 2017 times

---here deployed in the bomb-bay

6 casettes in SB bomb-bay.jpg (58.39 KiB) Viewed 2017 times

The bottoms of the ''casettes'' appear to have a release-mechanism. That c o u l d allow a loose bunch of light bombs to rain down from an SB.
With - the inherent risk of premature ignition/detonation of one or more of the little devices.
I.o.w. - a Super Onisko Bucket?

Anyone heard about this device before?

Anyone that can read Russian ? - there are plenty of links in my link above....And explain what we are seeing in those pictures?

Hopefully waiting to hear from someone who knows more than I do...Varjag

[Lotvonen]

This one is not the same as the "Molotov's Bread Basket" ?

[varjag]

This one is not the same as the "Molotov's Bread Basket" ?

No it is not. The RRAB (Bread Basket) - I believe was not a very successful weapon and relatively few were deployed against Finnish targets. RRAB, was too bulky to be carried in the bomb-bay of an SB (without special modifications) but was carried underwing.....

The ''casette'' of my question - appears a more likely candidate, for the veritable showers of small incendiary bombs - that rained over Finland in January and February 1940....?

Varjag

[Juha Tompuri]

Something more from here:
http://ser-sarajkin.narod2.ru/ALL_OUT/A ... Kas001.htm
A babelfish translation from the 3rd page of the link:

In August the same year the party of series [AK]-1 they sent to the troop tests. New model was characterized by the presence of upper lid with the hermetic sealing. From the bombers sb dropped the ampules from height 1000 m. result they recognized as successful. [AK]-1 recognized as the best, than advanced on the same tests cassette [Efimova]-[Onisko]. That was also pipe, but opened on top. Later cassette they made universal, that makes it possible to load either ampules or small bombs. This first modification was named [AK]-1[M]. It was experienced on [NIPAV] in February - March 1939. Construction obtained estimation “unsatisfactorily”. Main claim - covers were not opened to the end under the dead weight of load. Task it was possible to solve when it appeared [ABK]-1, accepted for the armament. It weighed 17,5 kgf - almost it is triply heavier than the initial version [AK]-1.

So... the (original?) Efimova-Onisko "buckets" were the ones with open top and ABK-1 a later version?
Or... was the "Onisko-bucket" a general nickname for all containers of that type?

Regards, Juha

[varjag]

Something more from here:
http://ser-sarajkin.narod2.ru/ALL_OUT/A ... Kas001.htm
A babelfish translation from the 3rd page of the link:

In August the same year the party of series [AK]-1 they sent to the troop tests. New model was characterized by the presence of upper lid with the hermetic sealing. From the bombers sb dropped the ampules from height 1000 m. result they recognized as successful. [AK]-1 recognized as the best, than advanced on the same tests cassette [Efimova]-[Onisko]. That was also pipe, but opened on top. Later cassette they made universal, that makes it possible to load either ampules or small bombs. This first modification was named [AK]-1[M]. It was experienced on [NIPAV] in February - March 1939. Construction obtained estimation “unsatisfactorily”. Main claim - covers were not opened to the end under the dead weight of load. Task it was possible to solve when it appeared [ABK]-1, accepted for the armament. It weighed 17,5 kgf - almost it is triply heavier than the initial version [AK]-1.

So... the (original?) Efimova-Onisko "buckets" were the ones with open top and ABK-1 a later version?
Or... was the "Onisko-bucket" a general nickname for all containers of that type?

Regards, Juha

Thanks very much Juha for a VERY INTERESTING link.
Have I correctly interpreted the ''black balls'' (ampules) as a chemical weapon? Something the soviets were very far ahead with in the mid-thirties.
The differentiation between ''ampules'' - and bombs, points in that direction. Appearently ''buckets'' and/or ''casettes'' were developed for both kinds....?

The only source for the term Onisko-bucket, that I know of - is Geust. Could the Finns have downed a U-2 - with the buckets, interrogated crew(?) - and fished the name ''onisko'' from them? And follows that Geust fished the term from some archive?

rgds, Varjag

[Vaeltaja]

Thanks very much Juha for a VERY INTERESTING link.
Have I correctly interpreted the ''black balls'' (ampules) as a chemical weapon? Something the soviets were very far ahead with in the mid-thirties.
The differentiation between ''ampules'' - and bombs, points in that direction. Appearently ''buckets'' and/or ''casettes'' were developed for both kinds....?

The only source for the term Onisko-bucket, that I know of - is Geust. Could the Finns have downed a U-2 - with the buckets, interrogated crew(?) - and fished the name ''onisko'' from them? And follows that Geust fished the term from some archive?

rgds, Varjag

AFAIK not exactly (per Soviet/Russian parlance). They did contain chemicals but not something which would usually be called as 'chemical weapons', instead they contained incendiary chemicals or substances like (white) phosphorous.

[varjag]

Vaeltaja wrote:

AFAIK not exactly (per Soviet/Russian parlance). They did contain chemicals but not something which would usually be called as 'chemical weapons', instead they contained incendiary chemicals or substances like (white) phosphorous

Aha! Spherical incendiary bombs. What were the balls made of - do you know? Bakelite/metal????

rgds, Varjag

[Harri]

I think the white phosphore was in pieces directly inside the vacuum canisters/containers? When the canister was opened the phosphore pieces caught fire in the air and down to earth caused large areal ground fires.

There are photos where Soviet planes are spreading some combustion agents for example over Nurmoila airfield where certain large wooden buildings (with a shingle roof) burned down as well. The burning obstacles seem to come directly from an aircraft, not from any dropped canister or container.

[varjag]

I think the white phosphore was in pieces directly inside the vacuum canisters/containers? When the canister was opened the phosphore pieces caught fire in the air and down to earth caused large areal ground fires.

There are photos where Soviet planes are spreading some combustion agents for example over Nurmoila airfield where certain large wooden buildings (with a shingle roof) burned down as well. The burning obstacles seem to come directly from an aircraft, not from any dropped canister or container.

Wow.....now THAT could explain -

Geust's book also mentions severe risks at moment of dropping these bomb-containers - resulting in loss and damage of SB bombers due to premature ignition of the bombs

Thanks Harri

Varjag

[Juha Tompuri]

Vaeltaja wrote:

AFAIK not exactly (per Soviet/Russian parlance). They did contain chemicals but not something which would usually be called as 'chemical weapons', instead they contained incendiary chemicals or substances like (white) phosphorous

Aha! Spherical incendiary bombs. What were the balls made of - do you know? Bakelite/metal????

Glass (thin metal?).
Similar as here:

http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/26894
http://sledopit.ucoz.ua/load/ampulomet_ ... /1-1-0-188

I think the white phosphore was in pieces directly inside the vacuum canisters/containers? When the canister was opened the phosphore pieces caught fire in the air and down to earth caused large areal ground fires.

There are photos where Soviet planes are spreading some combustion agents for example over Nurmoila airfield where certain large wooden buildings (with a shingle roof) burned down as well. The burning obstacles seem to come directly from an aircraft, not from any dropped canister or container.

That was another method of delivering phosphorous.
They were VAP(WAP?) containers like here:

A Pe-8 with 500kg VAP-500 containers :

http://my-dark-star.tumblr.com/post/138 ... er-pe-8-4m


http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/sb/sb-e ... lution.htm

Regards, Juha

[Topspeed]

How many Pe-8s did USSR have; http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petlyakov_Pe-8

I cannot read italian.

edit: okay 79

Here is 93 mentioned; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petlyakov_Pe-8

[varjag]

I think I have to award Juha a ''Trawler-skipper-medal''! Look what he found in his net....

So, the russkies did have a spherical incendiary bomb.Mostly used in a glass-shell.Which is ideal - because the enemy will only find glass-shards but little evidence of what weapon has been used. Sometimes, the shell is of different material - my guess is thin bakelite (plastic wasn't invented then) - which also is brittle and will shatter on impact.

The glass ampoules seen earlier - and now in Juha's most recent link - are 125/127/130mm diameter - and would weigh what - a kilogram each?

I know that the Finns, early in the Winter War - meticliously tried to count - the number of bombs dropped on them. But of course ''lost count'' under the sheer number and weight of bombs dropped. The Russian bombers simply overtook the Finns ability for statistics....

Now question - were the glass-ampule fire-bombs used during the Winter War?

Varjag

[Juha Tompuri]

I think I have to award Juha a ''Trawler-skipper-medal''! Look what he found in his net....

Thanks, mainly just digging up what is been written here earlier.

The glass ampoules seen earlier - and now in Juha's most recent link - are 125/127/130mm diameter - and would weigh what - a kilogram each?

1.5-1.8 kg according to this: http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/26894

Now question - were the glass-ampule fire-bombs used during the Winter War?

At least I don't remember of any cases.
At Red Stars 5 page 58 there are two mentions (1st Dec-39) of Sovet SB-2's being damaged by their own 8kg AO-8 bombs releasd from casettes exploding just under the planes.

Regards, Juha

[Topspeed]

Now question - were the glass-ampule fire-bombs used during the Winter War?

At least I don't remember of any cases.
At Red Stars 5 page 58 there are two mentions (1st Dec-39) of Sovet SB-2's being damaged by their own 8kg AO-8 bombs releasd from casettes exploding just under the planes.

Regards, Juha

Funny I was just yesterday thinking how where they able to drop them without being blown up by themselves.

[larth]

Note that the Russians also had an infantry support weapon for firing of glass ampoules ammunition, for example:

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/russia-so ... tar-12385/

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthr ... ons-in-WW2

Lars