A finn selected Ingrians to Natzweiler !

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Topspeed
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A finn selected Ingrians to Natzweiler !

#1

Post by Topspeed » 03 Sep 2004, 20:57

Hi all sad news,

To my great dismay I just saw a document on TV about finnish AKS ( Academic Karelia Society ) leader Helanen having been in close operation with SS when choosing who got to move to Finland and who were picked to go to Natzweiler KZ-lager in France from the Wehrmacht occupied areas near Leningrad.

All communists and for instance old people ( 142 ) were sent to a german camp eventhough germans had proposed that Finland would take them in ! Helanen said it is not in Finlands intrest to empty Ingrians elderlyhomes into Finland.

First time an evidence that a finnish officer was shown more cruel judgement than German SS. It is almost hard to comprehend.

400 Ingrians were sent to Finland from those german camps and 200 into KZ camps in first Estonia and then to another camp ( Stutthof ? ) and finally to Natzweiler.

Ingrian are folks that lived around Leningrad and speak ( spoke ) finnish fluently.

This is a war crime isn't it ?

Some of the older Ingrians died already before being transferred anywhere.

Study was done after Elina Sana had written her book Extradited about soviet POWs in Eastern Karelia.

I am still behind my words about the Elina Sana's book, but certainly something shady was going on and there should be no stone unturned until facts have been found.

Also a finnish transfercamp commandant was still alive and being interviewed. He looked very sad and sorry about everything. He commented: " What might have happened if the germans had won the war ? ". Well we know it all too well; his camps inmates would have been killed for sure...sooner or later.

Oh crap !

rgrds,

Juke T
Last edited by Topspeed on 06 Sep 2004, 15:28, edited 2 times in total.

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Juha Tompuri
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#2

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Sep 2004, 21:36

The total number of ingrians that (were) moved to Finland was nearly 60000. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &highlight
Topspeed wrote:All communists and for instance old people ( 142 ) were sent to a german camp eventhough germans had proposed that Finland would take them in ! Helanen said it is not in Finlands intrest to empty Ingrians elderlyhomes into Finland.
Some personal memories about it (starting from Juha H 291103): http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=75
This is a war crime isn't it ?
No, it was a rescue operation.


Regards, Juha


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#3

Post by Topspeed » 03 Sep 2004, 21:44

Ok Juha,

It was televised as a major crime in the TV.

cheers,

Juke T

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Juha Tompuri
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#4

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Sep 2004, 21:56

Topspeed wrote:It was televised as a major crime in the TV.
Of course:
"Bad news is good news, good news is no news" :(

Regards, Juha

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#5

Post by Mek » 03 Sep 2004, 22:14

Yes, it seemed like a some skeleton were found from the closet again in that documentary.

Vilho Helanen seemed to be an extreme rightist person. Having a history of being involved with AKS, IKL, and Lapua movement, basically all extreme right-wing organizations (or even semi-facist organizations) and even having some connections in Estonias ultra-nationalist organizations in the 1930's and 1940's. I would not wonder if this kind of person is let to choose the people from camps to be taken to Finland would pay heavy attention to all the ideals and aspects political suitability, and use those as criterias for choosing people.

Btw, After the war, Helanen was also convicted for helping a Danish Engineer who had worked for German Intelligence.

Regards,
-Pete
Last edited by Mek on 03 Sep 2004, 22:46, edited 1 time in total.

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#6

Post by Topspeed » 03 Sep 2004, 22:23

Mek wrote: I would not wonder if this kind of person is let to choose the people from camps to be taken to Finland would pay heavy attention to all the ideals and aspects racial suitability, and use those as criterias for choosing people.
Well racial suitability was not the issue, but political more or less. Helanen was in fact working with the SS in the same building with them SS officers. I recall they only said he worked for AKS. You remembered better.

Kinda creepy, if you ask me.


cheers,

JT

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#7

Post by Tero » 03 Sep 2004, 22:23

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Topspeed wrote:It was televised as a major crime in the TV.
Of course:
"Bad news is good news, good news is no news" :(

Regards, Juha
Which programme ? So that I can get the inevitable rerun.

Just to be sure: Was this particular selection a widespread Finnish action or was Hujanen the only one indicated in this mess ?

Why did the Germans send these people to a KZ in France in the first place ?

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#8

Post by Topspeed » 03 Sep 2004, 22:26

a piste program a new actual thing...21:00 today.

I have no idea why to Natzweiler. Reporters said they got no info of their fate in France. Possibly they were used for forced labour there.

JT

Mek
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#9

Post by Mek » 03 Sep 2004, 22:53

Topspeed wrote:Well racial suitability was not the issue, but political more or less. Helanen was in fact working with the SS in the same building with them SS officers. I recall they only said he worked for AKS. You remembered better.
I corrected the racial to political, indeed. and yes, I think they only said he worked for AKS in the program, but I got interested and read the mans short biography. He was also an author of several novels. Here's a pretty good link:

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/helanen.htm

It was indeed a little creepy to know that he worked with the SS or had to work with them(?). And when they mentioned that there was a "Iskuryhmä" (probably meaning an Einsatzgruppe in Finnish?) mapping the regions people, separating slavs and ingerians and such, I was a little stunned.

Regards,
-Pete
Last edited by Mek on 04 Sep 2004, 00:17, edited 1 time in total.

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#10

Post by Topspeed » 03 Sep 2004, 23:11

Mek wrote: It was indeed a little creepy to know that he worked with the SS or had to work with them(?).
I wonder what date was he at his "duty" with the German SS ? 1941-1942 or longer.
He seems to have had difficulties with president Kekkonen. He was also born here in Oulu where I live nowadays.
Was he convicted for life ? He died at 53 years of age.

JT

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#11

Post by Mek » 04 Sep 2004, 00:13

It seems like the research A-piste TV program presented here, has hit the news here too:

http://ww2.yle.fi/pls/show/frameUutiset?id=256930

The article is summary of the show in Finnish, and it says that Finns selected people related to Finns from German death camps and leaving behind those who did not match the quality criteria.

Regards,
-Pete

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#12

Post by Topspeed » 04 Sep 2004, 12:02

Mek wrote:I was a little stunned.
Mek,

You are a rough guy. I had always tought our leaders knew nothing about SS organized purges and death camps. Now I see that a finn was in charge of choosing from the captured german pows the suitable for Finland on political and racial grounds more or less. When he could have tried to save for instance jews and russians from a fate of death, but instead also neglected finnish originated ingrian elderly people and practically killed them by his decisions.

Of course we can also look at it from a different angle:

Finns were brothers in arms with germans and they accepted finns to look for their related people in the captured pows and in fact they did save trustworthy healthy people to fight another day for the common course.

regards,

Juke T

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#13

Post by Tero » 04 Sep 2004, 23:11

By Topspeed
I had always tought our leaders knew nothing about SS organized purges and death camps. Now I see that a finn was in charge of choosing from the captured german pows the suitable for Finland on political and racial grounds more or less. When he could have tried to save for instance jews and russians from a fate of death, but instead also neglected finnish originated ingrian elderly people and practically killed them by his decisions.
The operative word being A (single) Finn. I think it is clear not all Ingrians could be moved to Finland and there would have inevitably been Ingrians who would have chosen not to come. Somebody had to be responsible the selection. That does not mean he was privy to the existence of death camps. And if he was why were these people transported to Natzweiler, which was not a death camp ?

Did he insist these people would not end up an a mass grave already in Estonia or in the ovens of the death camps, even if they did not get elected to go to Finland ?

Were the Germans making sure that there would be deported Ingrians left when the war was won and the Finns would start asking for information on the Ingrians who did not get selected the first time around ?

It is quite interesting to note that his service in the Finnish army ended roughly at the same time the entire Finnish POW/internment camp(/Ingrian resettlement ?) administration was janked off the hands of the Civil Guard(/IKL/AKS ?) and rearranged under the proper military control. Is there a connection ?
Last edited by Tero on 04 Sep 2004, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.

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#14

Post by Tero » 04 Sep 2004, 23:12

BTW: lets hope they raise similar hell when they start digging up the fates of the Ingrians who were returned to USSR after the war. And what a huge crime that was.

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#15

Post by Topspeed » 05 Sep 2004, 09:45

Tero,

I am sure Vilho Helanen was displaced after IKL/AKS was banned in Finland. Helanen spent years in jail and died on a heart attack in Paris, France at 53 years of age.

I think Ingrians like all folks who fought in the finnish ranks from the tribes of the german conquered areas had the same destiny. Officers killed on the border and rest sent to Siberia for hard labour for a certain period. Luckily some escaped to Sweden before deportation. I also wonder why these deportations have not been studied more closely, but these 1941-1944 things are under scrutiny ?

rgrds,

Juke

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