SiPo Stahlrute

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timkoningskelp
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SiPo Stahlrute

Post by timkoningskelp » 07 Jan 2015 07:14

Recently a collegue showed me two photographs of what he called a 'stick' and asked me if I knew what it was. It's in possession of his father, who told him he captured it from a German during the war (his father was in the Dutch resistance).

I asked him to send the photographs to me, so I could post it on this forum and ask people more knowledgable then myself.

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After some searching on the internet I now know it's an Stahlrute or steel stick (baton) used by the Sicherheitspolizei during the war. It should have some more lettering on the bottom, but unfortunatly the pictures he send me are not clear enough te make this out. The Stahlrute is in working order (e.g. it can be retracted) and has some minor moist damage. Furthermore its missing its leather band. Since my collegue's father didn't even know what it was and has no intention to make any money of it, I have no doubt about it's originality.

My questions are specifically related to it's value, if any. Someone on the internet offered me less then $ 350,-, but I have seen this exact item on some other sites for prices between $ 1000,- and $ 1150,-. Could you please let me know what you think about it's condition and it's worth?
Thanks on forehand.

Best regards,
Tim

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John G.
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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by John G. » 07 Jan 2015 11:06

I personally have "MAJOR" reservations as to the originality of this "Stahlrute"..... the end cap markings are crudely executed and reek of typical reproduction quality .... I'd want to see both documentation and photographic evidence of it's use durning the period.... not some unbacked internet sources.... before believing it.

Wouldn't be anything I'd pay big money for..... without it's "leather".... even if I believed it is real....(which is "open to discussion"... too say the least IMHO.)

Just my opinion.... nothing personal.
John G.

JoeW
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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by JoeW » 07 Jan 2015 16:15

It's a legitimate piece. SIPO was the trademark. Trouble is they made them wartime and post WWII. Here is an excellent discussion of them from knowledgeable collectors.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... light=sipo

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timkoningskelp
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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by timkoningskelp » 08 Jan 2015 07:12

Thank you for your reactions.

John, I had the same doubts you have, before searching the internet and finding quite a lot of information about this Stahlrute.

JoeW, thanks you for the link. Unfortunatly the topic contains a link to one being sold on WAF, but that links is no longer working (the thread is from 2009).

Hence my question: what would it be worth.

I found the following item on e-militaria.com:

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And
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And these items on Sneyder:

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Sneyder is asking $999.99 and e-militaria $1150.-. Someone from Germaniamilitaria.com offered me less then $350,- (he said that was the price he sold a Stahlrute for himself). I know Sneyder doesn't have the best reputation, but in this case he seems reasonable with his price.
Can you give me an indication of a resonable value for this peace. As said my collegue's father isn't looking to sell it, but it would be nice if he knew what it would be worth.
Thank you.

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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by JoeW » 08 Jan 2015 07:25

I think Snyder's prices are way out of line,especially given the reputation. Dating the item is the problem. Your friend says his father got it from some German in wartime Holland. Hearsay unfortunately. I would value it at $500-$700 based on condition.

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timkoningskelp
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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by timkoningskelp » 08 Jan 2015 07:40

Thank you very much for your quick reply. I think my collegue will be very interested to hear this item is so valuable. During his youth he always called it simply a 'stick' and they came very close to throwing it away multiple times...
This forum is a real gem!!

Best regards,
Tim

Jesse E.
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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by Jesse E. » 25 Mar 2017 19:13

I would like to bump this topic because i found a similar item in the house of a friend of my aunt

is there some one here who can help me authenticate this item??

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kind regards,

Jesse.

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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by Sejanus » 27 Mar 2017 14:00

These stahlruten (steel rods) could be purchased brand new during the 1980's (and perhaps later). They were advertised (in the US) in magazines such as Soldier of Fortune, Gung Ho, Black Belt, etc. For example:

https://books.google.com/books?id=HNsDA ... po&f=false

I have seen no proof that these were produced during the Third Reich period. If anyone reading this does, please share the information here. Absent any proof, these are post war items with wildly exaggerated values when it comes to the likes of unscrupulous dealers like the Charles Snyder (and his ilk) mentioned earlier in this thread.

Also, note the spelling difference. SiPo was the Third Reich Sicherheitspolizei, while SIPO (all caps) is the model name for this stahlrute. Just because it says SIPO on it, does not mean that the SiPo ever used them.

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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by Jesse E. » 27 Mar 2017 17:19

Thanks for your reply...

It says SiPo and not all capitals and under further inspection you can see faint letters of the DRGM above SiPo and DRP below...
And after a little google hocus pocus the DRGM and DRP marks were never used again post WWII... (correct me if i'm wrong)

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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by Sejanus » 28 Mar 2017 07:29

Jesse E. wrote:Thanks for your reply...

It says SiPo and not all capitals and under further inspection you can see faint letters of the DRGM above SiPo and DRP below...
And after a little google hocus pocus the DRGM and DRP marks were never used again post WWII... (correct me if i'm wrong)
It looks like it reads "SIPO" in all caps in the photo you posted. Perhaps it looks different in person to you? In any event, the other markings (DRGM & DRP) do not necessarily prove that the item was manufactured before the end of the war, as there are plenty of post war faked items that such markings have also been added to. So without some sort of independent, verifiable evidence that these existed prior to the end of the war, there is no way to prove that what you have was produced during the Third Reich no matter how it is marked.

Hope this helps. And:

:welcome:

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Pickle
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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by Pickle » 15 Sep 2022 03:00

Sejanus wrote:
27 Mar 2017 14:00
I have seen no proof that these were produced during the Third Reich period. If anyone reading this does, please share the information here.
Stahlruten were at least being made prior to Hitler's takeover. From William Sheridan Allen's The Nazi Seizure of Power (revised edition), chapter 6, "The Depths of the Depression: Autumn--Winter 1931-1932," p. 78:

"Many SA men carried blackjacks, brass knuckles, or Stahlruten. These last were ingenious weapons consisting of a short length of pipe open at one end, inside of which was a spring with steel balls attached. The pipe was the handle; the spring and balls the weapon. When swung, the balls came out on the spring and struck with the leverage of their extended length, yet the whole contraption fitted neatly into a pocket."

After I read that, I just had to see a picture of a Stahlrute. Even better would be if someone could record a short video of one in action, maybe breaking a board like people do in martial arts. 8-)

Apparently the German police know what a Stahlrute is (see link below), but elsewhere hardly anyone is likely to know. I looked on several police supply, tactical gear, and martial arts websites without finding any Stahlruten. It would likely make an ideal defensive weapon for a young college woman who can't or doesn't want to carry a gun. "Look Mr. Policeman, it's just a back-scratcher!"
SR2.png
from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Men7bR0vWy0
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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by Hans1906 » 16 Sep 2022 16:05

Steel rods are flexible metal objects that can be pushed together and usually have a metal head. Rigid telescopic batons, regardless of the length when inserted, are not subject to this prohibition.

This weapon is not illegal in Germany, but will be confiscated, if found by the police.

"Totschläger" is the german designation, a mean weapon used most brutally in history, comparable to brass knuckles, as an insidious weapon.

Totschläger: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totschläger

If you carry something like this around with you, you will eventually use this weapon to harm other people, something like that is not acceptable!
As teenagers we bought stiletto knives in a gun shop in Oldenburg, it was "cool" to have something like that in our pocket, confused half-baked children, but these knives were sold to us in any length for small money... :roll:

The sellers at that time were the criminals, there were never limits to profit, unfortunately...


Hans
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„Im Leben gibt’s die Bösen und die Guten. Und die dazwischen, das sind die Bagaluten.“

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von thoma
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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by von thoma » 19 Sep 2022 03:20

And in the police batons that they put, OrPo ?

I find it laughable
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "

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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by Hans1906 » 19 Sep 2022 09:33

Hi Herr von thoma,

as children we often played a typical game called "Messerstich" / "Land abnehmen" with pocket knives and other blades.
We gambled for our pocket money, typical kid fun for us.
Taking land is an old child's game. The idea of the game is to gradually take away the "land" that is evenly allocated to you on a playing field by skillfully throwing a knife. The existence of this knife game has been documented by contemporary witnesses at least since the beginning of the 20th century.
Source and link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_abnehmen (G)

Probably no longer common today, back then every boy had a knife with him, smaller or bigger. :wink:
* (There are photos online of DJ/HJ boys playing this game with their HJ knives on a tree trunk, see attached photo...)

The "HJ-Fahrtenmesser" was for sale in every local hardware shop still in the 1960s, but without the Swastika symbol, instead with
the Boy Scouts symbol, the price for the knife was just under 10,- german Mark.
The knives were made in Solingen, on the old machines, by the same companies as before 1945.

And as far as I know personally, these knives are still being produced...


Hans
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„Im Leben gibt’s die Bösen und die Guten. Und die dazwischen, das sind die Bagaluten.“

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Pickle
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Re: SiPo Stahlrute

Post by Pickle » 20 Sep 2022 15:43

Hans1906 wrote:
16 Sep 2022 16:05
This weapon is not illegal in Germany, but will be confiscated, if found by the police.
The German police have authority to confiscate something that's NOT illegal? This makes no sense to me... Such a confiscation would be illegal in USA under the 4th Amendment (unreasonable search and seizure) unless one is actually using the object/weapon in question to commit a crime.

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