Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'

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Ezboard

Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'

#1

Post by Ezboard » 30 Sep 2002, 21:50

StandartenfuehrerSS
Veteran Member

Posts: 146
(2/10/02 1:02:22 pm)
Reply Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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Richard Murhpy did a good attempt at trying to reveal the origin of the symbol, good try, but not quite.

The origins trace back to the days of the Napoleonistic wars and the Deutsche Freiheitskriege. The Husaren of Prussia (Brunswick, then closely together) became the first weares of the symbol, who fought the French opression. The symbol of the Totenkopf was a sign of the German struggle, and their devotion to their cause, as well as hatred for the French. The 'Schwarze Herzog' Friedrich Wilhelm (1771-1815) founded the 'Schwarze Legion', initially in Austrian service, 1809, as most German states had already been overrun by the French. Following Austria's defeat, the Black Legion refused to surrender and fought it's way to the coast through Westfalen (Halle), with the Black Duke at the head of his men. They were evacuated by British ships at the Wesel, where they would go to Britain to rest and refit. In 1813-14 he would return to Germany, restore his state and continue the fight against the French. During the battle at Waterloo, it were the Totenkopfhusaren who countered the first mass cavalry charges of the French at around 15:00. Friedrich Wilhelm was shot in battle while leading his Korps at the battle of Quatre-bras.

The symbol was lated adopted by various cavalry regiments, and later by the Deutsche Panzerwaffe and the SS, who regarded themselves as the torch bearers of those same ideals as their ancestors fought for; independence and self-conscienceness. The symbol itself remained the same, a skull with crossed bones.

Some, rather backward, people assume that the skull proves the SS' role to kill and pillage, I have been puncturing this myth for the past decades, but it seems that, as the sun rises every day in the east, it brings more ignorant fools with it.

Herzog Friedrich Wilhelm von Brunswick

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Abzeichen for German WW I tank veterans

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Soldier from Totenkopf, notice skulls on his collar tabs

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DPWES
Veteran Member
Posts: 435
(2/10/02 1:14:15 pm)
Reply Greetings Standart
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Well pardon me for getting the wrong end of the stick and thinking that the Germans were out to kill people. How silly of me? I do feel like a complete clown. Ho, ho...I'm blushing. But hang on, maybe it was bullshit like this that gave me the idea? You think? Nahhhh....


Hitler's remarks "....So I have assembed my Death's Head Formations, for the time being only in the East, with the command to send man, woman and child of Polish origin and language to death, ruthlessly and mercilessly... This is the only way we can win the living space we need" ( address at Wehrmacht at the Berchtesgaden retreat 8/22/39)

Ozzy
Visitor
(2/10/02 2:00:47 pm)
Reply DPWES
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Of course war is killing people. What a fool you are!

Richard Murphy
Veteran Member

Posts: 238
(2/10/02 2:01:16 pm)
Reply Re: Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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Thanks for a very informative post, Standartenfuhrer.

Regards from the Park,

Rich

DPWES
Veteran Member
Posts: 440
(2/10/02 2:06:03 pm)
Reply Ozzy
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What the hell was that supposed to mean? War is killing people??? Why the fuck didn't the Germans go and kill that many people in Denmark, France, Norway, Belgium? What, are you re-writing the Geneva convention now? There's a war and then there's the Nazi war on Poland, don't ever get the two mixed up again.

Ozzy
Visitor
(2/10/02 2:25:04 pm)
Reply DPWES
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I think Poland should be honored as the country which had to suffer most of all countries under the Nazis. Some kind of certificate would be cool. You can pin it above your bed - hope you can sleep satisfied then.

DPWES
Veteran Member
Posts: 443
(2/10/02 2:42:01 pm)
Reply Ozzy
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I really don't understand your position. All I said was that people in Germany should know more about what happened in Poland during the war, because many lack that knowledge. I never said Poles shouldn't know more about what happened to German refugees at the end of the war. You could certainly make a strong case that they need to know much more. So what's your point? I don't get it? Don't you think that any reconciliation between Poland and Germany, which is a key thing if Europe is to integrate, should be based on hard facts, and not half truths and stereotypes?

Michael Miller
Moderator

Posts: 267
(2/10/02 5:33:17 pm)
Reply Poland
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6 million Poles were killed between 1939 and '45. If I recall correctly, that was 18 percent of the population of Poland at the time. So you may be right, Ozzy, about Poland suffering most under the Nazis- now get to work on designing that certificate.

~ Mike Miller

Shaktani
Member
Posts: 23
(2/11/02 3:49:34 am)
Reply Re: Poland
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I'd picked up the impression that the USSR suffered most -- but then, I've a strong feeling that 'suffering' and 'most' are very subjective terms, and that I'd get different candidates for the dubious title from every other person asked.

That said, I'm baffled at the level of hostility in some of these posts. Granted, I'm a newbie here, but still :) -- wouldn't it be fairly safe to conclude that most nations need to educate their young on more sides of the subject, not just those that place themselves as the winner / martyr / other role preferable to perpetrator and villains?

But then -- my Danish school education on WWII can be broken down to Bad Nazis, bad bad bad, no biscuit, and they did it in 1914 too.

I dare say I've expanded my horizons since.


--Birgitte

Michael Miller
Visitor
(2/11/02 4:19:12 am)
Reply "level of hostility"-- but of course.
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Well, we do discuss some fairly brutal and unpleasant things here (genocide, torture, mass rape, racism, etc.). One or two of us even think the murder of men, women, and children based on their ethnicity is a nifty and worthwhile undertaking. That said, is it really so baffling that this forum would reach a high level of hostility from time to time?

Welcome aboard, Ms. Shaktani.

Best wishes,
~ Mike Miller

Karl K 31
Member

Posts: 95
(2/11/02 8:45:17 am)
Reply
Re: Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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Thank you StandartenfuehreSS. That was very interesting. I have also often wondered what the idea behind the skull was. Prussian Hussars? Napoleonic Wars? I have heard/read that it was already used in WW1 but as to how far back it went, I had no idea. Der Schwarze Herzog sounds (and looks) like quite the warrior. Not someone I would complain about the food to.

TonyEH
Veteran Member

Posts: 364
(2/11/02 12:48:21 pm)
Reply Re: Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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Stand.SS.

I read many moons ago, that the Totenkopf symbol went back to the days of the Knights Templar, who after many became outlawed, turned to piracy and kept the symbol thereafter.

Do you know any more about this?

Tony

Ozzy
Visitor
(2/11/02 12:58:39 pm)
Reply Michael Miller
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<<<now get to work on designing that certificate.>>>

Sorry, I have no time and no experiences in disigning. Whout about you?

StandartenfuehrerSS
Veteran Member

Posts: 148
(2/11/02 1:38:56 pm)
Reply Re: Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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Thank you Karl, for your kind words.

TonyEH, are you sure it were the Knight's Templar? I have picked up certain references in the same direction too, only it was about the Teutonic Knights, who founded Poland as we know it today and made the Baltikum independant. But I do not attach much credibility to this, articles in newspapers are not the most reliable historical source, and I am quite sure Friedrich Wilhelm was the first. He had his men wear black uniforms with the skull attached, they were such a fearsome foethat Napoleon said about the black duke: "Je veux l'écraser, lui et toute sa famille". This translates as 'I want to crush him, him and all his family.". The black duke's father, Karl Wilhelm Ferdinand also died in battle against the French, at Auerstadt, near Hamburg.

Oldest version of the Totenkopf:

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Lars EP
Member

Posts: 89
(2/11/02 1:44:31 pm)
Reply Re: Poland
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Another Dane.... :-)

Velkommen ombord.


Lars

DPWES
Veteran Member
Posts: 457
(2/11/02 1:46:33 pm)
Reply The Teutonic Knights have always been our enemies
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You truly are a moron. Read some unbiased literature on the subject and you might learn something. Better still, go and put your head back in the toilet Standart.

TonyEH
Veteran Member

Posts: 367
(2/11/02 5:11:26 pm)
Reply Re: Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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Yep, I'm sure it was the Templars. I'll have to dig out the accounts about it at home. I don't think it was an offical symbol of theres though, more like an unofficial emblem of the people who were once Templars. A kind of nod and wink to former commrades, as it were.

Tony

Schmauser
Member

Posts: 85
(2/11/02 5:31:38 pm)
Reply
Re: Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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Standart, I often wondered who were the first to use the Totenkopf. As we know the pirates used it for their ships, so they could instill fear in their potential victims, and i'm sure the SS wanted the same effect on their enemies. It sure had the desired effect, and for obvious reasons. I never thought that medieval Knights would have used it, such as the Templars, but lets see if TonyEH can find out more for us. Thanks Schmauser

TonyEH
Veteran Member

Posts: 370
(2/11/02 6:10:59 pm)
Reply Re: Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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Don't hold your breath though Schmauser, It's only something that lurking in the back of my mind that struck me. I might have read it in 'Holy Blood Holy Grail' though or the such like, come to think of it.

Tony

StandartenfuehrerSS
Veteran Member

Posts: 149
(2/11/02 7:20:40 pm)
Reply Re: Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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No, the relation pirates-SS belongs in the kingdom of fantasy. I doubt if 'pirates' used a flag at all to be honest, much less one that clearly shows their origin. Your 'SS enemies', who were they? The SS as a whole was created as a protective force around the Nazi party in service of Germany, they wore the Totenkopf long before there was any sign of 'enemies', let alone in the sense of enemies on the battlefield. That the SS used to the Totenkopf just to inspire fear seems quite farfetched to me, not to say hilarious.

I rest my case, in the comforting tought of being right, that the Prussian Husaren were the first ones to use this symbol, later cavalry regiments took over the insignia from the famous Schwarze Korps, and utimatly the Panzerwaffe and SS would use it to represent their battle.


Image


Schmauser
Member

Posts: 88
(2/11/02 7:48:30 pm)
Reply
Re: Totenkopf (death's head) 'Sieg oder Tod!'
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You say the SS was a protective force, so what i said was right, they needed to protect their leaders from their enemies, otherwise it would'nt have be a 'protective force', make sense? These enemies i mentioned would have been the Nazi's Political enemies, the communists, and their Racial enemies, the jews, gypsies, slavs etc. Later on the enemy was mainly & most threateningly the Soviets, so these are the enemies i refer to. I believe the Totenkopf was introduced because of tradition, but you say that the fear element was farfetched & Hilarious? Well why do you think it was introduced in the first place, A skull and cross bones indicates death, and so an enemy would be fearful of his life is if his foe were to wear such an item on his uniform. I'm sure the Prussian Husaren also wanted their enemies to know that death was in store for them, so a Totenkopf would be a most logical emplem to wear, so a to inspire fear. I rest my case. Thanks Schmauser

Ezboard

#2

Post by Ezboard » 30 Sep 2002, 21:53

Chris
Visitor
(2/16/02 12:35:46 am)
Reply Good
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Interesting stuff Standart SS,thanks.

Commissar D the EviL
New Member
Posts: 4
(2/16/02 1:10:14 am)
Reply Very Informative Discussion
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But I especially like the SS/Pirate connection. It has a nice historical neatness to it. Der Schwarz Korps drawing its traditions and imagery from BlackBeard, how...appropriate. Cheers, Commissar D

Karl K 31
Veteran Member

Posts: 106
(2/16/02 2:03:26 am)
Reply
TonyEH
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It is interesting that you mention that Tony. In a far off distant place I seem to recall that the skull is a symbol for the Master Mason. You will find that many graves regarding freemasonry have this motif. Since some people directly link freemasonry with the KT, that is the connection. But I think that is where the connection stops. As far as I can tell it is has nothing to do with the Hussars.



Shaktani
Member
Posts: 25
(2/19/02 11:40:21 am)
Reply Knights Templar
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The Knights Templar did not to my knowledge use the dead's head symbol (however, the Memento Mori, Remember that you too will die, is common on all medieval mausoleum and tomb building). They did not turn to piracy -- you are confusing them with the licensed piracy of the Knights Hospitaller in their Maltese period (1530-1798). The Templars were not outlawed -- they were arrested in France on false charges of heresy in 1307 and as their reputation had been damaged beyond repair, they were formally disbanded in 1314 and their possessions turned over to the Hospitallers (that organization survives until today).

Happy to provide further information on request, I've done extensive studies of the medieval military orders.

--Birgitte

jdef
Member
Posts: 35
(2/19/02 11:53:21 am)
Reply Re: Knights Templar
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The knights Hospitaller? or the Knights of St John, are they one and the same? I know the Knights of St John were humilated by Napoleon, during his brief interlude on Malta, before the Egyptian campaign. If you could clarify, that would be great

Cheers


jdef
Member
Posts: 36
(2/19/02 12:02:51 pm)
Reply bit slow today
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Knights Hospitaller, order of St John, took me a while to remember. Were they still involved in piracy up until the defeat by the French? Was the piracy aimed at specific targets? The accounts at the time of the French conquest of Malta refer to the Knights as being horribly corrupt

Cheers

Shaktani
Member
Posts: 26
(2/19/02 12:14:34 pm)
Reply Sovereign Military Order of the Hospital and so forth
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The Sovereign Military Order of St. John of the Hospital of Jerusalem, Cyprus, Rhodes, and Malta -- in short, the Knights Hospitaller or the Knights of St. John -- purchased the Maltese islands in 1530 (or 34, I should look that up) from Charles I of Spain for the symbolic price of 1 falcon a year. They immediately took to fortifying the Maltese islands, founding the city of Valletta and adding their touch to Maltese landscape, architecture and culture for 300 years ahead. In 1798, however, they had grown decadent during peace time and Napoleon conquered the islands without a single sword stroke, the Maltese cooperating. Finding that switching the knights for Nappy had been no great bargain, the Maltese turned to the English in 1800, and remained a British colony until 1974 where they achieved independence.

The Knights of St. John (like the other medieval military orders, the Teutonic Knights which used the code of the Knights Templar included) were founded to conquer and hold the Holy Land. After the final fall of Acre in 1298, the Templars and the Hospitallers both began building up a fleet of warships to harass and fight the infidel, chiefly the Osmann Turks. The Templars were disbanded in 1314, i.e. before they really became much of a naval power, but the Hospitallers maintained this tradition until their eviction from Malta in 1798 (at which time they turned to the Russian Czar, and from that disaster, to the Vatican). Targets were nominally infidel crafts and coastal cities. They briefly held Tripoli, for instance. They also raided Christian merchant vessels, capturing Jews and others viewed in a bad light by the Roman Catholic church and seizing their goods; at times, there was open war between Malta and Venice over dominance of the Levant.

The Order still exists. It still maintains its own government, stamps, passports, coinage, etc., and holds a seat in the UN. Ambassadors are recognized in more than 80 countries worldwide, though today the Order works with charity and hospital work, no longer maintaining an armed force.

That help? Feel free to throw more questions my way, even if this isn't technically WWII material :)

--Birgitte

Edited by: Shaktani at: 2/19/02 12:16:03 pm

jdef
Member
Posts: 38
(2/19/02 12:36:29 pm)
Reply Re: Sovereign Military Order of the Hospital and so forth
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Yes, that was excellent, apparently a French trade mission that visited the island in 1798 used the opportunity to contact disaffected elements and pave the way for armed intervention by Napoleon, the account in David Chandler's 'Campaign's of Napoleon' refers to the treasurer of the order being bought by the French, he also mentioned that this arbitrary action did not go down too well as Austria nd Russia had long coveted Malta. I'd be interested to know if your've covered the De Saxe or Turenne in your study, I've had great difficulty finding material on them
Regards

Julian

Scott Smith 01
Old Fighter

Posts: 1514
(2/19/02 2:05:33 pm)
Reply
Totenkopf...
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Himmler may have liked the Death’s Head emblem and adopted it to show a more aristocratic SS in contradistinction to the non-elite SA or party militia. But the Toenkopf was a Prussian symbol, not Nazi.

Here is Field Marshal von Mackensen (1849-1945) wearing the headgear of the Death Head Hussars. You don’t get more Prussian than that.

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GFM von Mackensen with Hitler in Berlin, 1939. On Hitler’s left is GFM von Blomberg and in the rear are General Göring and Admiral Raeder.

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Schulze Boysen
Member
Posts: 27
(2/19/02 2:25:44 pm)
Reply
Re: Totenkopf...
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You don’t get more Prussian than that

Except for the "Pickelhaube" helmet.

StandartenfuehrerSS
Veteran Member

Posts: 173
(2/19/02 7:30:35 pm)
Reply Re: Totenkopf...
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Willkommen zurück, Herr Worst; Friesische 'hengsten' können nicht allen gezähmt werden, so scheint es. Störrische Tiere!

Schmauser
Veteran Member

Posts: 166
(2/20/02 12:42:41 am)
Reply
Re: Totenkopf...
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Commissar D, please be careful, StandartenfuehrerSS will get rather annoyed if you even try to connect the SS with Pirates ;] Schmauser

SS Totenkopf

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Pirate Totenkopf

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Edited by: Schmauser at: 2/20/02 12:52:34 am

Ovidius
Old Fighter

Posts: 1353
(2/20/02 11:00:04 am)
Reply
Pirates
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The pirate flag is mainly an invention of the Hollyweird crap industry. Fw pirate ships had flags at all. Those who had, used either a personal coat of arms of the captain, or a figure that would suggest force and might: dragon, lion etc. There might have been some ships with Totenkopf flags, but also with variations: skull and crossbones, skull and swords, more skulls etc.


~Regards,

Ovidius

Birgitte Heuschkel
New Member
Posts: 1
(2/20/02 11:10:55 am)
Reply Re: Pirates
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That'd make perfect sense. I can see the logic in trying to intimidate your prey into surrendering quickly by flying a frightening standard, certainly -- but on the other hand, they'd run like squirrels with their tails on fire if they spotted the crossbones too soon, providing a chase that otherwise might not have been necessary.

For comparison, the Knights of St. John flew their red-white standard (often confused with the Danish flag, but actually, we stole it from them) and their galleys were painted red. Maltese privateers and Knights on personal business, so to speak, flew private standards, and their galleys were painted black (or whatever, but black was the "official" color for a privateer).

Of course, there is little comparison between myths such as Blackbeard and the Knights, since the Knights represented a formal state. However, the parallel to Elizabethan sailors such as Drake and Bacon is quite obvious.

--Birgitte

Annelie
Visitor
(2/20/02 12:18:34 pm)
Reply >Re: Pirates
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Thankyou Birgitte, very interesting posts.
Even if they were not WWII related.

Annelie


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