Identification of aircraft

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islandee
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Identification of aircraft

Postby islandee » 23 Feb 2015 12:08

Please identify the "make" and "model" of this CNAC aircraft. The photo is probably dated prior to 29 Oct 1940:

Image

from Loiwing: a new link in China National Airways

I thank you.

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peeved
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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby peeved » 23 Feb 2015 12:38

A Douglas DC-2.

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Markus

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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby L1E1 » 23 Feb 2015 12:51

CNCA bought this plane at 1936. It was named as “四川”号 Sze Chuen or Sicuan. Later it's name changed to Chungking.

islandee
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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby islandee » 23 Feb 2015 13:33

Okay, thank you both.

L1E1, your assistance --- You add this info:

. It was named as “四川”号 Sze Chuen or Sicuan. Later it's name changed to Chungking

If I look at the Kweilin Incident, I see that the Kweilin, 桂林号, was rebuilt and named Chungking.

Were there two CNAC DC-2s with the name, Chungking?

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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby L1E1 » 24 Feb 2015 02:57

yes. Kweilin is No. 32. It was renamed as Chungking No. 39.
The old No. 29 was Sze Chuen. It was renamed as Chungking.

islandee
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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby islandee » 24 Feb 2015 07:42

L1E1: Okay, thank you. Now,if you're willing, I'd like to try to fitting events together time-wise.

26 Oct 1940: The facility at Loiwing was severely damaged by a bombing raid and was out-of-operation for many months after.

29 Oct 1940:I believe that Chungking, No 39, was on its first operational flight from Hongkong (where it had been rebuilt) when it ran short of fuel and landed at Changyi in eastern Yunnan. There it was attacked and destroyed on the ground.

? ? ? Presumably thereafter, Sze Chuen, No. 29, was renamed Chungking, No. 29. What date?

It's curious that the Chungking name was "recycled" after No. 39 had been destroyed: after Kweilin, No 32, had been rebuilt, it was renamed Chungking, and renumbered No. 39, because of concern about any stigma, any superstition, that might have followed the Kweilin name and number. Yet No. 29 picked up the name. Any thoughts on that?

? ? ? Would you have any record / any idea of when No. 29 might have visited Loiwing for this photo? Unfortunately, I can't give you a date for when Loiwing became operational. I believe it was certainly functioning a year later, October 1941.

I thank you for your input.

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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby L1E1 » 24 Feb 2015 13:24

It was not that complicated. No 29 Sze Chuen was renamed as Chungking to take the first flight to Hong Kong - Chungking. No 29 was under check up and later as parts for other planes. The name Sze Chuen later gave to another plane (DC3) and the name Chungking gave to a DC2.

No 32 later took the name Chungking and changed to No 39. The reason is Chinese traditional. A vehicle / a plane that cause life is not lucky. Chinese will refuse to travel on. Chinese will rename it to make people feel peace or let people not related to any death.

Anyway you should complain the Japanese. The top speed of their planes is still slow enough to let them confirm it is a civil plane. A plane which is no harm to them. But they keep on using their machine guns to attack. Even the plane was shooted down at the sea, they keep on firing so as to kill all the people.

islandee
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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby islandee » 24 Feb 2015 16:29

Thank you for your quick response. You write:

>It was not that complicated.

Okay, but with my apologies, looking in from the outside, it's still difficult to follow. And I say, in advance, thank you for your patience. What I see is this:

>No 29 Sze Chuen was renamed as Chungking to take the first flight to Hong Kong - Chungking.

The first flight for Hong Kong - Chungking was in December 1937.

>No 29 was under check up and later as parts for other planes.

To use military terms, No 29 was later deadlined and cannibalized for parts --- a common practice. When did it go "under check up"?

>The name Sze Chuen later gave to another plane (DC3) and the name Chungking gave to a DC2.

The name Sze Chuen was then reassigned to a DC3 and the name Chungking was reassigned to the DC2, No 32, which became Chungking No 39.

Two CNAC aircraft were not named Chungking at the same time. First was No 29 (Sze Chuen), and later No 39 (Kweilin). The name did not appear on any CNAC aircraft after the Kweilin incident on 29 Oct 1940.

So the aircraft in the photo was No 29, the original Sze Chuen, which had been renamed Chungking.

So the photo was taken after the opening of the original Loiwing runway (spring 1939) and before No 29 went "under check up"?

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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby L1E1 » 25 Feb 2015 12:04

No worry. It is always good to ask the details. My apologies to make you feel nerves.

From my best of memory, No 29 cannibalized for parts at around early 1938.

Donald Sam Wong who was an relative of mine, an ex CNCA pilot during the war, told us about the story of Jap always attack civil plane. He mentioned Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company (CAMCO) had a factory in Loiwing (Leiyun) where the CNCA planes had regular check up there. I think there is still a chance No 39 (Kweilin) was rebuilt there.

I would say the plane is No 39.

islandee
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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby islandee » 26 Feb 2015 15:28

1L1E:

Summarizing some of this:

1936: No 29 was received and assigned its number and the name Sze Chuen.

Dec 1937: No 29 was renamed Chungking before it made CNAC's first Hong Kong-Chungking flight. So the name, Sze Chuen, was "retired" in Dec 1937.

Early 1938: No 29 went down for lack of spare parts, and was then cannibalized, and finally decommissioned. It was decommissioned as the Chungking. So the name, Chungking, was "retired" in early 1938.

Nov-Dec 1939: After No 32 had been rebuilt, it was renumbered as No 39. The name Kweilin was permanently "retired" and the name Chungking was taken out of retirement for the new No 39.

29 Oct 1940: No 39 was destroyed at Changyi. So the name Chungking was permanently "retired" effectively on 29 Oct 1940.

So, the name Chungking had been used:

1. From December 1937 to early 1938 (for No 29)
2. From Nov-Dec 1939 to 29 Oct 1940 (for No 39)

Loiwing airfield became active in the spring of 1939 and was put out-of-service on 26 Oct 1940 as a result of an IJAAF attack.

So any picture of a CNAC DC-2 named Chungking at Loiwing had to have been taken between Nov-Dec 1939 and 26 Oct 1940. And the only CNAC aircraft with the name, Chungking, during that period was No 39.

1L1E: Does that all sound okay?

Again, I thank you for your patience.

L1E1
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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby L1E1 » 27 Feb 2015 09:50

Yes. That make sense.

islandee
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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby islandee » 28 Feb 2015 05:31

L1E1:

Thank you. Now, a different tack:

Do you have any thoughts on what the Chungking might have been doing between Nov-Dec 1939 and 29 Oct 1940?

Again, my thanks.

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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby Stanford9 » 02 Dec 2015 13:26

Can anyone identify the aircraft from these parts? It is on eBay and completely unexplained, very odd! Maybe it fell off a railway carriage? Spare parts being delivered?
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peeved
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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby peeved » 02 Dec 2015 13:56

A Dornier Do 17.

Markus

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Re: Identification of aircraft

Postby Stanford9 » 02 Dec 2015 22:11

Thank you Marcus! I wonder how it got there!
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