Help: The 8.8cm AA gun imported by China in 1930s

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xingbake69
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Help: The 8.8cm AA gun imported by China in 1930s

Post by xingbake69 » 09 Oct 2006 07:36

This is a topic that puzzlede me for a long time. In many historical records, it indicated that China bought 12 8.8cm costal guns from German in 1936. Someone deduced it was the famous Flak18 8.8 cam AA gun. But so far there is no evidence to prove it. But I don't believe it was Flak18.

Here are some more specific information:

1. In a list of the ammo China bought from German in 1930s: it indiciated China bought 8.8cm SKL/45 costal guns from German in 1936;

2. Some Japanese records said that "Type 99 was based on the Krupp 88 mm Flak of the German Navy (8.8cm/45 SK C/30), which was captured in China."

Type 99 AA gun:
Image

My question is:

Are these two guns actually the same one? What does C/30 means? Does it mean 1930?

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Akira Takizawa
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Post by Akira Takizawa » 10 Oct 2006 06:49

> Are these two guns actually the same one? What does C/30 means? Does it mean 1930?

See below.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_Main.htm

I heard that AA guns that the Japanese captured were 8.8cm/45 SK C/30. But, German artillery is not my speciality. So, I cannot verify this information.

Taki

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Akira Takizawa
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Post by Akira Takizawa » 10 Oct 2006 17:36

I upload the photos on German AA gun captured in China. IJA document stated that this gun was produced in 1936. If it was really 1936, it is difficult to think it as 8.8cm SKL/45, because SKL/45 was the gun of WWI.

Taki
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xingbake69
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Post by xingbake69 » 11 Oct 2006 02:49

Great picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's first time for me to see the 8.8cm aa gun that China bought in 1930s. Thanks indeed !

Actually there were many German guns were named as SK L/45 in early 20th century. SK stands for "fast loading" (someone also said SK means Ship Cannon). As I know, the guns named as SK L/45 have various calibers, e.g. 88mm, 105mm, 150mm, etc... If you don't know the mfg. year, it's very difficult to judget which SK L/45 it is.

For 88mm/45 SK C/30 aa gun showed in this picture, I guess maybe it was the 88mm SK L/45 made in 1930. Actually it was the prototype of the famous Flak18 88mm gun later.

xingbake69
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One more question

Post by xingbake69 » 11 Oct 2006 14:35

Where is this picture from? Is it from a book?

Did it indicate where this gun was captured?

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Akira Takizawa
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Re: One more question

Post by Akira Takizawa » 11 Oct 2006 15:41

> Where is this picture from?

"支那軍兵器要覧" issued by 陸軍技術本部 in 1938

> Is it from a book?

It is the IJA intelligence report on Chinese weapons.

> Did it indicate where this gun was captured?

江陰 and 南京

Taki

xingbake69
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Post by xingbake69 » 12 Oct 2006 04:15

Thanks! It also answer another quesiton:according to Chinese record, the 8.8cm gun only deployed at 江阴,江宁 and 武汉. Some one find some clue that it was also delpoyed at 南京. But didn't find any solid evidence. Now it is tesified that 南京 also has the 8.8cm gun.

nuyt
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Great picture

Post by nuyt » 01 Dec 2006 12:39

Great picture indeed, thanks Taki.

I do think however that thsi gun might even be older than 1930. It looks a lot like the Krupp 8,8cm naval guns made around WW1. Possibly an old batch was delivered.
Maybe these:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc13.htm
After HIH Siderius demise, China in general became a client of Rheinmetall, not Krupp.
There seems to have been a division of labour among German arms manufacturers - Turkey was also a client of Rheinmetall. This had to do with the organisation of private industrial conglomerates in Germany and their historical and political connections. The industrial empire of Otto Wolff that delivered a lot of civilian and military equipment to China had a stake in Rheinmetall.
Also, after Versailles, the German govt assigned the development of Navy guns below 17cm cal to Rheinmetall and bigger ones to Krupp. Krupp did not design or build lighter cal naval weapons in the Interbellum.

Taki, are there by any chance any pictures of Dutch or HIH or Siderius weapons in that intelligence report?

Thanks and kind regards,
Nuyt

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Akira Takizawa
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Re: Great picture

Post by Akira Takizawa » 02 Dec 2006 08:31

nuyt wrote:Taki, are there by any chance any pictures of Dutch or HIH or Siderius weapons in that intelligence report?


I checked the report, but I cannot find any weapon stated as Siderius.

In the report, many weapons had no detailed model name like German 88mm AA gun. There might be a weapon of Siderius among them. But, I cannot identify it, because I am not familiar with Western weapons.

Taki

nuyt
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Post by nuyt » 02 Dec 2006 11:09

HI Taki, thanks for your reply.

HIH Siderius at least delivered a dozen or so 75mm infantry howitzers to the Chinese army around 1930:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... mm+inf+how
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... n+in+China

Probably also at least one 65mm/37mm twin barrel gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... e+gun+pics

The Chinese Navy received at least one 15cm naval gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... Naval+guns
Probably same or similar to the Dutch 15cm Naval gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... n+survives

and some as yet unknown 75mm L40 naval AA guns. If there are pictures of these, I would be very interested!

Some of the weapons might accidently be seen as German arms since Siderius was partly owned by Rheinmetall and salesmen in China were often Germans...

HIH Siderius had a wide line of weapons to offer and I would not be surprised if a couple more would show up one day, like the:

- 105mm L22 Howitzer (possibly sold to China as well):
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... witzer+L22
- 88mm naval gun
- 75mm field guns
- 75mm/8cm AA guns
- 20mm Ehrhardt AT/AA machinecannon
- reworked British 18pdrs
etc.

Kind regards and thanks
Nuyt

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Post by nuyt » 02 Dec 2006 11:11

I forgot the possible delivery of Naval 12cm guns...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... naval+guns
Nuyt

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Akira Takizawa
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Post by Akira Takizawa » 03 Dec 2006 08:36

Nuyt,

As far as I have seen, there seems no weapon like these. The report did not mention to naval guns, because it is IJA report.

Taki

nuyt
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Post by nuyt » 03 Dec 2006 14:02

Thanks for lokking again Taki!
Kind regards,
Nuyt

CyirlSh
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Re: Help: The 8.8cm AA gun imported by China in 1930s

Post by CyirlSh » 27 Aug 2018 08:57

Krupp 8.8 cm Z.A.

Image
Kangzhan: Guide to Chinese Ground Forces 1937–45
https://books.google.ru/books?id=ZYQwDw ... na&f=false

forttravel
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Re: Help: The 8.8cm AA gun imported by China in 1930s

Post by forttravel » 08 Jun 2019 21:11

New picture from Nankin, source NDL Japan.
19bakuhuzan.jpg
And example drawing of way to fixing similar gun to the ground (later period), source BaMa.
DSC09403 (2).jpg
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