Help: The 8.8cm AA gun imported by China in 1930s
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Help: The 8.8cm AA gun imported by China in 1930s
This is a topic that puzzlede me for a long time. In many historical records, it indicated that China bought 12 8.8cm costal guns from German in 1936. Someone deduced it was the famous Flak18 8.8 cam AA gun. But so far there is no evidence to prove it. But I don't believe it was Flak18.
Here are some more specific information:
1. In a list of the ammo China bought from German in 1930s: it indiciated China bought 8.8cm SKL/45 costal guns from German in 1936;
2. Some Japanese records said that "Type 99 was based on the Krupp 88 mm Flak of the German Navy (8.8cm/45 SK C/30), which was captured in China."
Type 99 AA gun:
My question is:
Are these two guns actually the same one? What does C/30 means? Does it mean 1930?
Here are some more specific information:
1. In a list of the ammo China bought from German in 1930s: it indiciated China bought 8.8cm SKL/45 costal guns from German in 1936;
2. Some Japanese records said that "Type 99 was based on the Krupp 88 mm Flak of the German Navy (8.8cm/45 SK C/30), which was captured in China."
Type 99 AA gun:
My question is:
Are these two guns actually the same one? What does C/30 means? Does it mean 1930?
- Akira Takizawa
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> Are these two guns actually the same one? What does C/30 means? Does it mean 1930?
See below.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_Main.htm
I heard that AA guns that the Japanese captured were 8.8cm/45 SK C/30. But, German artillery is not my speciality. So, I cannot verify this information.
Taki
See below.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_Main.htm
I heard that AA guns that the Japanese captured were 8.8cm/45 SK C/30. But, German artillery is not my speciality. So, I cannot verify this information.
Taki
- Akira Takizawa
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Great picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's first time for me to see the 8.8cm aa gun that China bought in 1930s. Thanks indeed !
Actually there were many German guns were named as SK L/45 in early 20th century. SK stands for "fast loading" (someone also said SK means Ship Cannon). As I know, the guns named as SK L/45 have various calibers, e.g. 88mm, 105mm, 150mm, etc... If you don't know the mfg. year, it's very difficult to judget which SK L/45 it is.
For 88mm/45 SK C/30 aa gun showed in this picture, I guess maybe it was the 88mm SK L/45 made in 1930. Actually it was the prototype of the famous Flak18 88mm gun later.
Actually there were many German guns were named as SK L/45 in early 20th century. SK stands for "fast loading" (someone also said SK means Ship Cannon). As I know, the guns named as SK L/45 have various calibers, e.g. 88mm, 105mm, 150mm, etc... If you don't know the mfg. year, it's very difficult to judget which SK L/45 it is.
For 88mm/45 SK C/30 aa gun showed in this picture, I guess maybe it was the 88mm SK L/45 made in 1930. Actually it was the prototype of the famous Flak18 88mm gun later.
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One more question
Where is this picture from? Is it from a book?
Did it indicate where this gun was captured?
Did it indicate where this gun was captured?
- Akira Takizawa
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Re: One more question
> Where is this picture from?
"支那軍兵器要覧" issued by 陸軍技術本部 in 1938
> Is it from a book?
It is the IJA intelligence report on Chinese weapons.
> Did it indicate where this gun was captured?
江陰 and 南京
Taki
"支那軍兵器要覧" issued by 陸軍技術本部 in 1938
> Is it from a book?
It is the IJA intelligence report on Chinese weapons.
> Did it indicate where this gun was captured?
江陰 and 南京
Taki
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Great picture
Great picture indeed, thanks Taki.
I do think however that thsi gun might even be older than 1930. It looks a lot like the Krupp 8,8cm naval guns made around WW1. Possibly an old batch was delivered.
Maybe these:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc13.htm
After HIH Siderius demise, China in general became a client of Rheinmetall, not Krupp.
There seems to have been a division of labour among German arms manufacturers - Turkey was also a client of Rheinmetall. This had to do with the organisation of private industrial conglomerates in Germany and their historical and political connections. The industrial empire of Otto Wolff that delivered a lot of civilian and military equipment to China had a stake in Rheinmetall.
Also, after Versailles, the German govt assigned the development of Navy guns below 17cm cal to Rheinmetall and bigger ones to Krupp. Krupp did not design or build lighter cal naval weapons in the Interbellum.
Taki, are there by any chance any pictures of Dutch or HIH or Siderius weapons in that intelligence report?
Thanks and kind regards,
Nuyt
I do think however that thsi gun might even be older than 1930. It looks a lot like the Krupp 8,8cm naval guns made around WW1. Possibly an old batch was delivered.
Maybe these:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc13.htm
After HIH Siderius demise, China in general became a client of Rheinmetall, not Krupp.
There seems to have been a division of labour among German arms manufacturers - Turkey was also a client of Rheinmetall. This had to do with the organisation of private industrial conglomerates in Germany and their historical and political connections. The industrial empire of Otto Wolff that delivered a lot of civilian and military equipment to China had a stake in Rheinmetall.
Also, after Versailles, the German govt assigned the development of Navy guns below 17cm cal to Rheinmetall and bigger ones to Krupp. Krupp did not design or build lighter cal naval weapons in the Interbellum.
Taki, are there by any chance any pictures of Dutch or HIH or Siderius weapons in that intelligence report?
Thanks and kind regards,
Nuyt
- Akira Takizawa
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Re: Great picture
I checked the report, but I cannot find any weapon stated as Siderius.nuyt wrote:Taki, are there by any chance any pictures of Dutch or HIH or Siderius weapons in that intelligence report?
In the report, many weapons had no detailed model name like German 88mm AA gun. There might be a weapon of Siderius among them. But, I cannot identify it, because I am not familiar with Western weapons.
Taki
HI Taki, thanks for your reply.
HIH Siderius at least delivered a dozen or so 75mm infantry howitzers to the Chinese army around 1930:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... mm+inf+how
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... n+in+China
Probably also at least one 65mm/37mm twin barrel gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... e+gun+pics
The Chinese Navy received at least one 15cm naval gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... Naval+guns
Probably same or similar to the Dutch 15cm Naval gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... n+survives
and some as yet unknown 75mm L40 naval AA guns. If there are pictures of these, I would be very interested!
Some of the weapons might accidently be seen as German arms since Siderius was partly owned by Rheinmetall and salesmen in China were often Germans...
HIH Siderius had a wide line of weapons to offer and I would not be surprised if a couple more would show up one day, like the:
- 105mm L22 Howitzer (possibly sold to China as well):
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... witzer+L22
- 88mm naval gun
- 75mm field guns
- 75mm/8cm AA guns
- 20mm Ehrhardt AT/AA machinecannon
- reworked British 18pdrs
etc.
Kind regards and thanks
Nuyt
HIH Siderius at least delivered a dozen or so 75mm infantry howitzers to the Chinese army around 1930:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... mm+inf+how
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... n+in+China
Probably also at least one 65mm/37mm twin barrel gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... e+gun+pics
The Chinese Navy received at least one 15cm naval gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... Naval+guns
Probably same or similar to the Dutch 15cm Naval gun:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... n+survives
and some as yet unknown 75mm L40 naval AA guns. If there are pictures of these, I would be very interested!
Some of the weapons might accidently be seen as German arms since Siderius was partly owned by Rheinmetall and salesmen in China were often Germans...
HIH Siderius had a wide line of weapons to offer and I would not be surprised if a couple more would show up one day, like the:
- 105mm L22 Howitzer (possibly sold to China as well):
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... witzer+L22
- 88mm naval gun
- 75mm field guns
- 75mm/8cm AA guns
- 20mm Ehrhardt AT/AA machinecannon
- reworked British 18pdrs
etc.
Kind regards and thanks
Nuyt
I forgot the possible delivery of Naval 12cm guns...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... naval+guns
Nuyt
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... naval+guns
Nuyt
- Akira Takizawa
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Re: Help: The 8.8cm AA gun imported by China in 1930s
Krupp 8.8 cm Z.A.
Kangzhan: Guide to Chinese Ground Forces 1937–45
https://books.google.ru/books?id=ZYQwDw ... na&f=false
Kangzhan: Guide to Chinese Ground Forces 1937–45
https://books.google.ru/books?id=ZYQwDw ... na&f=false
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Re: Help: The 8.8cm AA gun imported by China in 1930s
New picture from Nankin, source NDL Japan.
And example drawing of way to fixing similar gun to the ground (later period), source BaMa.