Hainan Operations

[Jerry Asher]

Does anyone know when in their discussions between the IJA and IJN the decision to occupy the Island was introduced. By Jan. 1939 agreement is reached, but I suspect it was not the Navy's first choice--I suspect a Nanning operation may have been considered and then dropped when IJA balked. The choice of Taiwan Brigade, I think is illustrative of IJA reluctance. I have a decent OB
Myoko flag 5th Kantei
Natori
Nagara flag DesRon 5
DDiv 23--Mochizuki,Mutsuzuki,Mikazuki,Kikuzuki
DDiv 28-Yunagi, Asanagi
DDiv 45 Matsukaze, Asakaze
CV Akagi and DD Hayate ??? (perhaps one or more other DD's)
CVS Kamikawa Maru (did CVS's have a guard ship, a DD or DesDiv)
CVS Chiyoda
Now I have insecurities:
Akitsu Maru IJN AUX
Delhi Maru " "
Nansen Maru # 10
AM W-7
DD Oite (what role --what DDiv)
CM Katsuriki
Now I have real work to do:
12th AM Group
Oikaze
Soshichi
Katsuragi
Igasa
Kotuku Maru
Manko Maru
Shinyo Maru
Hongkew Maru
PG Sagi
PG 5 Kagu Maru
Calcutta Maru
AND OTHER THAN Shinshu Maru no idea of IJA transports for Taiwan Brigade.

Many thanks to all--isn't this fun?

[asiaticus]

Thanks for posting this listing. Hope we can get more details on some of these IJN landing operations in the Sino-Japanese War. They seem to have been the practice ground that made their 1941-42 campaign so effective.

[Akira Takizawa]

The IJN wanted an airbase on Hainan, but the IJA opposed the occupation of Hainan. After several negotiations between IJN and IJA, the IJA reluctanly agreed with the occupation of Hainan and it was decided on Jan. 19th.

> but I suspect it was not the Navy's first choice--I suspect a Nanning operation may have been considered and then dropped when IJA balked.

The IJN had a plan to advance south. For this plan, the airbase on Hainan was important. So, the occupation of Hainan was the first step of the Navy's plan, not a result of compromise.

Taki

[Jerry Asher]

Many thanks Asiaticus and Akira; I've enjoyed and learned from many of your postings.
Asiaticus--we are only four hours apart by car--perhaps we can get together some time.
Let me clarify:
Kagu, Katsuragi, Kinugasa, K otoku, Manko and Shinsho were the AP's for landing of SNLF in southern Hainan. (All but Shinsho show up as one kind of naval aux or another in Jentshura)
Other than Shimshu Maru, AP's for Taiwan brigade are unknown by me.)
Think that Hongkew, Caalcutta, & Delhi are Aux PG's( looking for Div)
12th Am Group = ???
Akira: Am aware of Jan 19th agreement and that IJN wants to go south. IJN is already prime agency for South China, doesn't need Army approval-- except it wants IJA troops at time IJA wants to declare victory and bring the troops home.
Stratgically Japan is at crossroads--Hainan ops do not fit July 27, 1937 Cabinet authority or are necessary to counter Jiiang Jihshe in Central China. IJN has already occupied Weichow Island off Pakhoi. Anyway food for thought. Akira can you help on OB above?

[Akira Takizawa]

Hainan Conquest Forces

- Myoko (5th Fleet flag ship) - Vice Admiral Kondo Nobutake
- Nagara, Natori
- 23rd Destroyer Group - Mochizuki, Mutsuki, Mikazuki, Kikuzuki
- 45th Destroyer Group - Matsukaze, Asakaze
- 28th Destroyer Group - Yunagi, Asanagi
- 12th Minesweeper Group
- Dalhi Maru, Akitsu Maru, 10th Nanshin Maru, Minesweeper No. 7, Katsuriki, Oite
- 4th Base Force (Manko Maru, Shinsho Maru, Sagi, Gunboat unit)
- 1st Air Unit (14th Kokutai, 16th Kokutai, Kamikawa Maru)
- 1st Air Sentai (Akagi, Chiyoda, Hayate)
- Kagu Maru, Calcutta Maru
- Yokosuka 4th SNLF (Katsuragi Maru)
- Kure 6th SNLF (Kinugasa Maru)
- Sasebo 8th SNLF (Kotoku Maru)
- 5th Garrison Unit (Shinsho Maru)


Taki

[Peter H]

It must be remembered that Hainan was also seen by the French to be in their sphere of influence,with its proximity to Indochina.The Army had doubts about stirring up trouble with the West.However the capture of Canton in late 1938 and a lacklustre response from the British and French on their Treaty Port rights there assisted in further expansion designs.

Hoihow had French architecture and French traders among its populace.It was along the main French trade route into southern China.The French protested along with Britain and the US but that was it.

From Corbis,Hoihow,March 1939:

[Jerry Asher]

Many, many thanks Akira;
The OB makes a lot more sense now.
Info on Akitsu Maru and site directed to was excellent.
Still a question--could there be another Akitsu Maru? The one lilsted in Jentschura as LC or aircraft transport is built later than this operation. I am aware of repetition of names in Japanese as well as English,
With warnest regard--Jerry

[Akira Takizawa]

Still a question--could there be another Akitsu Maru? The one lilsted in Jentschura as LC or aircraft transport is built later than this operation.

You are right. Landing craft carrier Akitsu Manu had not yet been built at this operation. This Akitsu Maru will be a marchant vessel employed by the IJN.

Taki

[Jerry Asher]

Just a note of thank you to Akira

[Peter H]

OOB detailed here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 632#880632

[asiaticus]

Jerry thanks for your post:

Asiaticus--we are only four hours apart by car--perhaps we can get together some time.

I will send you a PM.

Let me clarify:
Kagu, Katsuragi, Kinugasa, K otoku, Manko and Shinsho were the AP's for landing of SNLF in southern Hainan. (All but Shinsho show up as one kind of naval aux or another in Jentshura)
Other than Shimshu Maru, AP's for Taiwan brigade are unknown by me.)

Excuse my ignorance but what does AP stand for?

Think that Hongkew, Caalcutta, & Delhi are Aux PG's( looking for Div)
12th Am Group = ???

PG means?
Am group = Anti mine?

Are you meaning that the 12th Minesweeper Group is composed of the following:

-- Dalhi Maru, Akitsu Maru, 10th Nanshin Maru, Minesweeper No. 7, Shoriki, Oikaze ?

Akira: Am aware of Jan 19th agreement and that IJN wants to go south. IJN is already prime agency for South China, doesn't need Army approval-- except it wants IJA troops at time IJA wants to declare victory and bring the troops home.
Stratgically Japan is at crossroads--Hainan ops do not fit July 27, 1937 Cabinet authority or are necessary to counter Jiiang Jihshe in Central China. IJN has already occupied Weichow Island off Pakhoi. Anyway food for thought. Akira can you help on OB above?

When did the Japanese occupy Weichow Island off Pakhoi and what were the reasons? I would guess it would be a base for blockade of the coast in that area.

What forcess were involved?

[Jerry Asher]

Hi Asiaticus: A pleasure to here from you

Weichow Islalnd occupied Sept 28th, 1938--no data who or how. Island in big enough for airfield and was often a target of 14th AF. Pakhoi not spelled Beihai. Suspect Weichow is Weizhou now. Mission is clearly blokade monitoring.

AP = troop transport
PG= gunboat
AM=minesweeper
AMS= small minesweeper

Defer to Akira for 12th Minesweeping Group--but
Dalhi is Delhi Maru 2,171 tons
Shoriki I thing is Katsuriki classified by IJN as "survey ship" 1936 as per Jentschura, page 197.
Oikaze I suspect is old DD Okikaze (will hone in on translations over next two weeks

Some cultural things-- Our thinking is shaped first by what we know of American Navy vocabulary and practice..Japanese minewarfare practices may be different. For instance the number of craft classified as "survey' might be minespotter in English.

Also IJN Minesweeping invollves a more diversified group of ships than was common American practice--almost all escorts have significant mine sweeping capability.
And IJN willingness to mix, different kinds of ships into Groups really predates American and European minewarfare practice.

Feel comfortable with Hainan Ops except for ongoing frustration at Army AP's for transit of Taiwan Brigade. (a convoy of 8-15 ships wouldn't surprise me).

Did you see my posting on Swatow/ Shantou ops of June 1939. ended up somewhwere else.

Want to review Nanning ops of Nov 1939 and Guangzhou Oct 38, but not really sure if new posting is desireable.

[asiaticus]

I would post by operation. Then if you want to refer to another operation during a discussion you can site its http location on the forum and each discussion stays focused.

[Akira Takizawa]

- Dalhi Maru, Akitsu Maru, 10th Nanshin Maru, Minesweeper No. 7, Katsuriki, Oite

These ships are not of 12th Minesweeper Group. The composition of 12th Minesweeper Group is unknown.

> Shoriki I thing is Katsuriki classified by IJN as "survey ship" 1936 as per Jentschura, page 197.

You are right. It is Katsuriki (勝力).

> Oikaze I suspect is old DD Okikaze (will hone in on translations over next two weeks

It is not Oikaze, but Oite (追風).

The reading of IJN vessel names are irregular. They are difficult to write in Roman.

Taki

[Jerry Asher]

Hi everyone:

Akira --I think I found a candidate for Akitsu Maru--built 1936, 1038 ton tansport--source is Jentshura p.274.

Looking at OB from Asiaticus for Taiwan Brigade, over two complete regiments, we should need ten ships. Only known participant is Shimshu Maru, but she may be second or third wave, and used less as a troop ransport than as a cargo carrier.

Note each SNLF had own transport and these a good size ships, from 6,000 tons
Shinsho Maru is still a mystery

Very diverse group of escorts and auxilaries
Sagi is torpedo boat
W 7 new 750 ton AM
Katsuriki as "survey ship" not sure what that means for naval ops
Oite is destroyer (Once with 29th DesDiv)

Akitsu Maru 1,038 ton
Delhi Maru 2,171 tons
# 10 Nanshin Maru a real question mark
Kagu Maru 6,807 tons
Calcutta Maru 5,339 tons

Landing site itself, very prone to tidal changes, extended shallows and mudflats
Still we seem to have good coverage of combat elements.