Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

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sjchan
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by sjchan » 22 Mar 2009 15:25

Kind of a postscript, sust came across the official casualties for the 200th D in the Battle of Toungoo, from v.68 of the 101 vol. "Military History of the Sino Japanese War" published in Taiwan:

Cavalry Company 81 killed 10 wounded
Artillery Battalion 81 killed 10 wounded
Engineer Battalion 62 killed
598th Regiment 537 killed 132 wounded
599th Regiment 474 killed 46 wounded
600th Regiment 687 killed 240 wounded

Total 1905 killed 442 wounded

The high killed to wounded ratio is due no doubt to the ferocity of the fighting as well as the difficulty in evacuating and handling the wounded during a retreat through the Burmese jungle.

There is also a table of the loss of equipment as well as expenditure of ammunition:

I attach a few numbers for illustrative purposes - can't believe it is possible for the numbers to be so exact:

82 mm mortars 3218 rounds
37 mm mortars 495 rounds
rifle rounds 746514 rounds
rifle grenades 2925 rounds
grenades 8286

Brady
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by Brady » 04 Aug 2009 04:11

p.

David Reasoner
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Re:

Post by David Reasoner » 04 Aug 2009 18:38

sjchan wrote:There is quite a bit of confusion on what exactly were the Renault tankettes in Burma. There weren't too many of the FT-17s left by then, and the KMT bought mostly UE tankettes, and thus they were most probably the ones in action during the Burma campaign. However the UE tankettes carried only machine guns, which did not match the comments (made by the Tank Regiment commander) referenced in my post (namely the Renault tankettes had guns but no machine guns). There were even suggestions that the Chinese somehow replaced the machine guns with 37 mm guns. Given the scarcity of definitive source material, it is hard to tell.
The Renault tankettes used in Burma were almost certainly Renault AMR-ZB:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... ut+AMR-ZB-

Half of those delivered were apparently armed with a 37mm SA18 gun, the other half (including the one shown in the Getty Images photo, taken in Burma in April 1942 for Time magazine) were armed with a 13.2mm heavy machine gun.

Image

David

L1E1
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by L1E1 » 12 Feb 2011 16:19

sjchan wrote:Some photos of the AFV of the 200th Divison at the Battle of Kunlun Pass; the first showing some Vickers amphiphious tanks advancing towards the battleground; the second showing T-26s being assembled for the battle; . These seldom seen photos are from the book Guó Pò Shān Hé Zài (国破山河在) pp. 84-85 (just published in 2007).
China has total 29 VCL amphibious tanks.
1) 12, version L1E1, in Cantonese troop. (Lost 11 in 1938 Oct)
2) 16, version L1E2, in Dragon Company.
3) 1, version L1E2, in Military Academy.

Take a look on the Vickers Amphibious tanks photo, the version (Turret) of the tank is L1E1. That must be those 12 VCL amphibious tanks empolyed in Cantonese troop. The uniform of the soldiers also suggested the photo was took between 1933 -1936. (If the photo was took between 1937-39, they should wear Italian unifrom). Thus it is impossible for those amphibians advancing towards Kunlun Pass during Dec 1938 - Jan 1939. (Please note "the white flower/Sun" on the turret should be someone who add on the original photo.)

Besides please help me to find the offical english name of these two schools. Many Thanks!
1) 陸軍機械化學校
2) 陸軍裝甲兵學校

coldone
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by coldone » 14 Aug 2011 16:28

1)Army‘s Institute of mechanization
2)Army's Armored Force School
In truth they are the same O(∩_∩)O~

Bob_Mackenzie
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 28 Nov 2011 09:31

Irritatingly, Google Maps has higher resolution photos of the area immediately north of the old city, but only a lower resolution photo of the city wall area itself.
In case anyone is interested Googles resolution has now improved

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=18.933 ... oramio.all

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asiaticus
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by asiaticus » 10 Dec 2011 02:11

Been a while since I was here. Nice to get a better Google Map on Tongoo.

This really is such a great thread to read again.

Asiaticus

sjchan
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by sjchan » 06 May 2012 11:20

Nice to see you around. I have not been around too much lately; spent most of my time recently in Chinese forums to beef up my knowledge. With the help of many others, including some here, I have vastly improved my understanding of the Sino Japanese war and have collected extensive Chinese, Japanese and English resources. But it is fun to see how I hunted down material in those days ...

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asiaticus
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by asiaticus » 07 May 2012 20:17

Good to see you are continuing on studying this war. Could use the attention.

zoboe
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by zoboe » 09 May 2012 03:16

L1E1 wrote:
sjchan wrote:Some photos of the AFV of the 200th Divison at the Battle of Kunlun Pass; the first showing some Vickers amphiphious tanks advancing towards the battleground; the second showing T-26s being assembled for the battle; . These seldom seen photos are from the book Guó Pò Shān Hé Zài (国破山河在) pp. 84-85 (just published in 2007).
China has total 29 VCL amphibious tanks.
1) 12, version L1E1, in Cantonese troop. (Lost 11 in 1938 Oct)
2) 16, version L1E2, in Dragon Company.
3) 1, version L1E2, in Military Academy.

Take a look on the Vickers Amphibious tanks photo, the version (Turret) of the tank is L1E1. That must be those 12 VCL amphibious tanks empolyed in Cantonese troop. The uniform of the soldiers also suggested the photo was took between 1933 -1936. (If the photo was took between 1937-39, they should wear Italian unifrom). Thus it is impossible for those amphibians advancing towards Kunlun Pass during Dec 1938 - Jan 1939. (Please note "the white flower/Sun" on the turret should be someone who add on the original photo.)
China did not have L1E2. The outside difference between L1E1 and L1E2 mainly includes: the driver's hatch, and the exhaust pipe. The photos of Dragon Company clearly show it was L1E1, not L1E2.

The book Guó Pò Shān Hé Zài (国破山河在) contains too many mistakes about armor (both Japanese and Chinese), not worth for reference in this aspect.
By the time of the Battle of Kunlun Pass, the 200th Division was no longer an armored division, but an elite infantry division of the mechanized 5th Army Corps. The tanks belonged to the 1st Armored Regiment of the 5th Army Corps.

As for the wrong photo of "Vickers amphibious tank in the Battle of Kunlun Pass", the original one was actually taken in a 1935 exercise of Cantonese troop. Then in 1937, some newspaperman added a rough "white sun" marking, and claimed that as a part of Kiang-yin江阴 fortress. It is very funny that in recent years, this photo has become a rumor of Kunlun Pass, what a wild misleading guess.

Edward Chen
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by Edward Chen » 09 May 2012 05:37

Good comment on Guó Pò Shān Hé Zài (国破山河在). The author Sà Su [萨苏] is quite prolific in his works on the Sino-Japanese War, kind of like the late American historian Stephen Ambrose, and if his (lack of) attention to detail is similar, then reader beware.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/sasu

One correction. In November 1938 the National Revolutionary Army (NRA) 200th Division (mechanized) was reorganized into a regular triangular infantry division, and combined with the New 22nd and 77th Divisions to form the New 11th Corps.
In February 1939 the New 11th Corps was redesignated the 5th Corps, with the 1st Honor Division replacing the 77th Division. The 200th Division's original armor assets (formerly the 1149th and 1150th Regiments with a total of four battalions of tanks) were reorganized as the 5th Corps' Armored Regiment comprising four battalions of tanks, organic under the corps headquarters, along with the division's original artillery, reconnaissance, transport and logistical assets.

After the severe losses in the Gui-nan (southern Guangxi) Campaign / Battle of Kunlunguan, the NRA 5th Corps' decimated 1st Honor Division was replaced with the 96th Division. In August 1940, the 5th Corps Armored Regiment was broken up: its 1st and 2nd Battalions were detached to form the 1st Armored Regiment, which was later expanded to three battalions, each with three 12-tank companies (seven T-26's and five CV-35's per company). The 1st Armored Regiment received the 12 Renault light tanks (AMR-ZB) and fought during the 1942 Burma Campaign subordinated under 5th Corps. Between January 1944 to July 1945, the 1st Armored Regiment was actually redesignated the 48th Division's 142nd Regiment (combined with the 143rd and 144th Regiments of infantry), and directly subordinate under the NRA Supreme Military Council. After July 1945, the 142nd Regiment reverted back to its old designation of 1st Armored Regiment, this time directly subordinate under the Kunming Defense Command.

The former Armored Regiment's 3rd and 4th Battalions were used to form the NRA 2nd Armored Regiment based in Shaanxi province subordinated under the Thirty-fourth Group Army (initially commanded by Hu Tsung-nan, later Li Yen-nien [Hu Zongnan; Li Yannian]). The 2nd Armored Regiment was organized with two tank battalions each with three 10-tank companies (the vehicle makeup not specified, but included T-26, CV-35 and Vickers 6-ton tanks). Ostensibly deployed to protect the Xi'an region from possible Japanese advances further up the Yellow River (as well as to guard against the Communists to the north in Yan'an), the 2nd Tank Regiment saw little action during the rest of the war.

Source: 國軍裝甲兵發展史 (“The Development of the ROC Armored Forces”) by 孫建中, ‪Taiwan Dept of Defense 2005, pp43-45.

Come to think of it, this thread really should include the actions of the other divisions that served under the Nationalist Army's 5th Corps. Now that the historical record has been clarified, all this fascination focused upon the 200th Division (which was organized as a mechanized division only briefly, and even then never fought as such in its entirety--only Maj-Gen Ch'iu Ch'ing-ch'uan's mechanized "Strike Column" formed from elements of the 200th Division was committed to battle at Lanfeng in May 1938) is a little misdirected.

Hope this helps,

zoboe
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by zoboe » 09 May 2012 11:10

You are right Edward, the image of the 200th Division as an "armored division" is much exaggerated and distorted. More unfortunately, western rumors were imported and spread by many mainland Chinese hobbyists, without due judgement of their own.

The book 國軍裝甲兵發展史 (“The Development of the ROC Armored Forces”) is superb indeed. The weaknesses (despite typos on troop designation) to my view include:
(A) Equipment-wise:
(a) most profile photos on the final pages are far from clear, the captions too poor, the collection incomplete;
(b) reliable quantity of AFVs imported and confiscated from IJA is not displayed at all;
(c) the importance of some AFVs e.g. T-26, Japanese tanks and domestic armored cars is not discussed;
(d) the armored equipment of local forces of the NRA other than the "central army", e.g. Yan Xishan's, Fu Zuoyi's, and of the 29th Army Corps around 1937, is completely neglected.

(B) Personnel-wise:
(a) the display of Soviet systematic training from 1938 seems too little;
(b) the Japanese training post-WW2 is neglected;
(c) the amount and effect of "changing side (to the communist)" of armored troop members in the Chinese Civil War are not discussed, but anyway, such historical facts are uncomfortable to face;

(C) File-wise:
The author did check some files kept and published by mainland China, while far from enough, much more that he could have explored and discovered. Also, the author could have checked the formal lists of the AFVs imported and the Japanese AFVs confiscated. Time, location, type and quantity should have been clarified as much as possible.

sgtscott658
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by sgtscott658 » 17 Sep 2012 08:14

Hi ya-

Did the Japanese have any Armor at Kunlun Pass in December of 39? Did they also use chemical weapons during their battle for Kunlun Pass?


Thanks

Scott

zoboe
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Re: Chinese 200th Division: descriptions of actions needed!

Post by zoboe » 30 Oct 2012 14:51

sgtscott658 wrote:Hi ya-

Did the Japanese have any Armor at Kunlun Pass in December of 39? Did they also use chemical weapons during their battle for Kunlun Pass?


Thanks

Scott
There was mentioning of IJA armor around Kunlun Pass in Dec 1939-Jan 1940, but definitely not on the mountainous terrain there. So it was probably be only light armored cars (type 94/97 tankettes) of infantry division trying to support the troop besieged.

Chemical weapons were not mentioned for the battle for Kunlun Pass alone, probably because both forces were too close and key positions changed hands really too often.

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