MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

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twraia
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MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby twraia » 07 May 2009 20:13

Hello guys,
I apologize if my posting here contravene with the rules (new user here)
the question I've got here is about the sources of MG 42 and StG 44 in China during Chinese Civil war used by perhaps the Chinese Revolutionary Army /KMT and Communist Party of China

In Taiwan, there is a rudimentary military museum that showcases several pieces of weapon used by KMT/nationalist soldiers back in China
there is a MG 42 on display, of which I couldnt make out the source of.

have you guys got any idea of how MG42 ended up in the hands of the KMT soldiers back in China?
another post on this forum brought an interesting option here
[Chinese Military Mission to North Africa]
viewtopic.php?f=101&t=144897&start=0
does this imply that the MG 42 in Taiwan came from Chinese military mission to North Africa?

as for the use of StG44,
I wasn't aware of the "fact" that the national revolutionary army "acquired" StG44 and "used" StG44 during WW II
*it was included on the list of weapons used by NRA during WW II on the wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ry_weapons

I wasn't able to find reference to the point made on wikipedia, thus this information might as well be false
(though under the "check and balance" of Wikipedia, the likelihood of that might not be so high!?)
lets assume that the national revolutionary army did have StG44 during WW II
where could they came from?

perhaps through USSR? as she was a weapon supplier to the Communist Party of China, and USSR might have given some odd number of StG44 it captured from German soldiers at the time?

additionally, how were the NRA supplying ammunition for StG44?
did the "odd" 92x33mm Kurz rounds limit the use of StG44 in China as makeshift weapons?

thanks

Ardee
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby Ardee » 11 May 2009 16:21

Before May 1945? Seems unlikely. IIRC, Germany stopped supplying China shortly before allying herself with Japan. I believe the USSR filled in part of the shortfall, so possibly some captured weapons might have been sent -- but the KMT already had a huge quartermaster's problem without adding more diverse weapons to the mix. While the Germans did supply some MG 42's to allies such as the RSI, I haven't learned of any instances of "sharing" the STG 44 with another country - I don't think Germany could meet her own demand, much less that of China.

After the fall of Germany? Lots of German weapons hit "the market"....

twraia
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby twraia » 12 May 2009 13:16

thanks for replying :)

yeah, I agree with you on the unlikelihood of National Revolutionary Army using StG44 during WWII
the author of that page on wikipedia probably made a mistake of adding StG44 into the mix

but it is true however, that NRA had (and still have) MG 42
take a look at the picture here, its a picture taken by the "not so professional" museum in Taipei
indicating that this MG42 was part of the possession of NRA
Image

it would be great if the source of it can be identified though... nobody seems to be sure :|

here is a link to the museum's website with the page containing the list of machine gun they have on display
http://museum.mnd.gov.tw/Publish.aspx?cnid=1448&p=12468
the English version of the site is rubbish... so this is in Chinese :oops:

by the way
despite the "crappiness", the museum has several interesting piece of collection
such as this one
Image
its a PPK donated by the family of a Chinese general - Hu Zongnan (Republic of China to be precise)
Portrait of General Hu Zongnan from wikipedia
Image
they also made the reference of how Adolf Hitler killed himself with a PPK just like this one in the bunker...
not sure how authentic that information is :roll:

Ardee
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby Ardee » 12 May 2009 16:31

but it is true however, that NRA had (and still have) MG 42
take a look at the picture here, its a picture taken by the "not so professional" museum in Taipei
indicating that this MG 42 was part of the possession of NRA


Alright, but is there any info on when they had it? Maybe I'm focusing on a misconception, thinking you wanted info specifically about the era of WWII = '39 (or in China's case, '37) - '45. IIRC, the Chinese Civil War went on for several years after the end of WWII -- meaning someone could have supplied the ex-German weapons after the end of WWII, or as we both mentioned, an Allied force might have supplied some captured weapons before '45. I'm certainly no expert on arms sales, but it seems wildly improbable to me that Germany would/could have supplied the KMT with an MG 42.

twraia
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby twraia » 12 May 2009 18:04

yeah, I realized that the way I put it made it a bit confusing, sorry about that
StG 44, according to Wikipedia, was used by NRA during WW II
as for MG 42, I am pretty sure that it came after WW II
the curators at the museum had no idea when the NRA got their MG 42, so its very hard to figure out the data, let along the source.
which is what I am interested to know

I agree with you mate, it is highly unlikely that KMT have gotten any weapons directly from Germany after the end of Sino-German cooperation in 1937
but even the argument of how KMT could've gotten them from the Allies after WW II was highly disputed
there was this idea of how KMT might've gotten them through the Vichey French in Indochina at the time
but then did the Vichy French in Indochina had MG 42?

I guess the most possible source would be post-war compensation of some sort
it would be great if I can get my hands on these data though :wink:

additionally, looking at your argument of how there was an influx of German weapons into China post-WW II
you would agree that it is likely the Chinese soldiers (both the National Revolutionary Army/KMT and Communist)
might've gotten an odd number of StG44 and perhaps, used them during the Chinese Civil War?

don't know how they sort out the kurz-spec of the ammunition though, but according to some program I saw on National Geographic, the German simply chopped their standard 7.92x57mm Mauser short when they were making the ammunition for stg44 - sounds like an elementary processing that wouldn't be too difficult even for China at the time :lol:


thanks again for replying mate :)

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HC8604
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby HC8604 » 13 May 2009 07:10

I believe that Germany continued to sell the K 98k to China after 1937 and upwards to 1939, secretly without the knowledge of Japan.

I know the allies supplied copies of ZB26, made by Inglis in Canada to China. Never heard of a MG 42 used by the Chinese though.

twraia
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby twraia » 13 May 2009 07:50

thanks for replying HC8604

would it be possible for you to elaborate a bit on what made you believe that German continued to supply Mauser 98 k to China since the withdrawal of its advisory group in 1938?

there are mainly three oddities here that I don't quite understand
1) why would China want to purchase Mauser 98 k when they are already mass producing Chinese copy of Mauser Standard Model - Type Zhongzheng rifle since 1935

2) how is stable supply of German weapons possible when China at the time was under the invasion of Japan - The fall of Nanking in 1937 only made the situation on the ground more chaotic than ever; under such a circumstances, what might've been the possible supply routes?

3)why would the German wanted to supply the enemy (China) of their important "partner" (Japan) with weapons? especially when the Japanese were on the course of invading China proper - does this sort of imply that Germany didn't really want Japan to take China? or was it a mere miscommunication from the top, that HItler wasn't aware of the military ambition of the Imperial Japan, thus made the wrong dicision to continued to supply China with German weapons? Given the fact that the German policy of favoring Japan over China at the time (they even when on to the extend of acknowledging the sovereignty of Manchukuo, a puppet state established with the help of Japan in China), was it likely that Germany would allow such a contradiction to exist in its foreign policy?

on the other hand, could it be possible that the China you were talking about were actually the Japanese puppet-state "Manchukuo"?
that would certainly make sense, though I haven't heard any actual cooperation between Germany and Manchukuo

thanks again for replying mate,
I hope my long questions didnt offend you in anyway :)

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The_Enigma
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby The_Enigma » 13 May 2009 19:17

3)why would the German wanted to supply the enemy (China) of their important "partner" (Japan) with weapons?


If i was to take a wild, uneducated in this area, stab in the dark i would venture the answer to the question: why does anyone sell guns? to make some money.

twraia
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby twraia » 13 May 2009 23:35

point taken
but it seems very unlikely that Germany would put its newly formed alliance with Japan in jeopardy over some insignificant number of arm sell to China :idea:

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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby The_Enigma » 14 May 2009 00:51

Am just venturing wild guesses here to be honest; possibly private arms deal and not through the government?

twraia
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby twraia » 14 May 2009 01:50

I was thinking about the same thing before, of how it might be possible that some back channel of arm trade existed.
but I still think it is unlikely that China would be willing to purchase Mauser 98k when they can make their own copies at cheap costs :?

none of this really answer the source of MG42 though... back channel arm trade between China and Germany since the beginning of the second world war? hardly likely :wink:

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HC8604
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby HC8604 » 14 May 2009 07:11

I would believe that China demanded guns, any guns that anybody is selling they would get their hands on, even though it would be a mess with different calibers. I don't think their factories were producing enough and they were in constant threat. China had manpower, but guns were short in supply.

Those German K98k rifles were the ones that failed inspection and were sold off. The Germans wanted high quality stuff, but later on it didn't really matter as much.

Let me find the source...

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HC8604
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby HC8604 » 14 May 2009 07:17

http://books.google.com/books?id=KlReVu ... le#PPP1,M1

Go to page 101, it will say that these were the type sold from 1937-1939. But this isn't the exact source that I found it through originally.

twraia
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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby twraia » 14 May 2009 13:23

thank you so much mate, :)
this is great source!
I am going to take a closer look through it later

too bad that it doesn't have any records of the exact number of rifles sold to China at the time :wink:

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Re: MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

Postby YC Chen » 07 Nov 2009 09:10

There are also three StG 44s, one MP 42, two MG 34, one MG 42 and even one PAK 38 5cm AT gun in Chinese Military Museum in Beijing.
I also have a document photo shows a MG 34.


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