Questions on Chinese FT-17s

[Akira Takizawa]

Do you know how many Japanese FTs were armed with captured ZB-26s?

It seems that the most MGs of Renault tanks sent to Manchuria were replaced with ZB-26. The problem is that it is not clear how many Renault FTs armed with MG were sent to Manchuria. Japanese tank unit of Manchurian Incident had one platoon which would consist of 6 Renault FTs. But, its detailed composition is unknown.

Taki

[SASH155]

In the photos I have seen the guns in question have the typical short Hotchkiss M-1908 series LMG gas cylinder with the thin gas takeoff tube and finned rear part of the barrel, a stubby thick smooth barrel with center mounted sights and no flash hider instead of the long, thin, finned barrel and off center front sights and flash hider associated with the ZB series of LMGs. Photos of these tanks are on Overvalwagens. I tried to copy one, but for the moment the search function is down on that site for some unknown reason.

[SASH155]

Here is that link: http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... urian+Army

[YC Chen]

Would you please upload the photo here? For unknown reason the Overvalwagens site can not be visited in Chinese mainland now. Thank you!

[SASH155]

I tried to copy a photo from there, but it would not post for some reason. I will keep trying.

[SASH155]

Waht is your e-mail address, I will send the link to you that way, as there seems to be a block on the photos preventing copying?

[Leo Niehorster]

Here it is.

Sorry that it is sideways, but this forum requires that the image at most 800 pixels wide and 2000 pixels high, and I did not want to change it.
Cheers
Leo

[SASH155]

That was actually one of the photos I was trying to post, but there is another one as well, which I can send as an e-mail. Note what I was mentioning about this MG: although it is not exactly clear the profile of the gun matches the old mle. 1908 Hotchkiss LMG (aka. Benet Mercié machine rifle; the M-1909 in U.S. service, and Hotchkiss Mk. I in British service) ie: short gas cylinder, stubby thick, finless barrel without flash hider.

[YC Chen]

Hmm......interesting pic. In fact, I have seen a part of this picture in a Chinese magazine.
The caption on it says that this picture is a part of a footage and it shows a Fengtian army's FT was being shown to civilians after Fengtian army's victory in Shandong province.
My e-mail address is [email protected]. Any photos and information on Chinese FTs are welcome!

[YC Chen]

SASH155, thank you for sending me the photo by e-mail. Now I agree with you: the machine gun is a 1908 Hotchkiss LMG. In fact, this gun was also widely used in China until late 1940s. My question is: was this modification done by French factory or by Fengtian army itself? And why they didn't use the original Hotchkiss HMG?

[SASH155]

Not sure. I would wager that the guns were actually surplus British .303 Hotchkiss Mk. I LMGs, as used on British tanks during the First World War. I am not sure what the guns' exact origin and route would have been. The Russians used these guns on many of their AFVs, but I am not sure if they might have been chambered for the standard Russian 7.62x54R cartridge (I thoght I read somewhere that the Russian guns were indeed rechambered for that cartridge); some of the Chinese guns may have actually originally been brought out of Russia during the civil war there by fleeing White units. The British Hotchkiss Mk. I light machine guns were the most common variant of this weapon, however, the original French 8mm Lebel mle. 1908 was not common at all (I believe that the French army bought only appr. 20 or so prior to 1914, however the French air force seems to have used some between 1914 and 1916 before they adopted the .303 Vickers aircraft gun), and the U.S. 7.62x63mm (.30-06) M-1909 "Benet-Mercié machine rifle" as it was called here, was rarer still and an unlikely candidate for use in China. It is also unclear whether any of the Chinese guns might not have been rechambered for 7.92x57mm Mauser. According to my research they do seem to have used some Mle. 1914 Hotchkiss HMGs (which was actually the more usual MG used on FT-17s), but in what caliber I am unsure. Wesley

[YC Chen]

Yes, in fact Chinese army used a large number of Hotchkiss HMGs. Some of them were 7.92mm, and some were even 6.5mm(these copies were built in Shenyang Arsenal, for using 6.5mm Japanese cartridge).
In that period every warlord seems to have there own "standard caliber". Of course, 7.92x57mm Mauser was used most widely. A few warlords in southern China even used 6.5mm Italian cartridge as standard. 6.5mm Japanese cartridge was also widely used.

[SASH155]

The Shenyang Arsenal weapons chambered for the Japanese 6.5mm cartridge may have in fact been copies of the Japanese Type 3 HMG, which was based largely on the Mle. 1897/1900 Hotchkiss design; I believe that the Japanese had purchased some Mle. 1897 Hotchkiss HMGs ca. 1898 or so. However, I was not aware of Italian small arms playing any significant role in Chinese arms imports, other than the few I mentioned in the doc. (the Breda-SAFAT and Fiat M-1935 HMG for example). Were the weapons in question various 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, Breda M-1924 and/or M-1930 LAAGs etc..?

[YC Chen]

Yes, I forgot the Japanese HMG.
Some warlords did use Italian weapons, however, I don't know much about them. I only know they seem to have some 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifles. Chinese army in WWII also had some Fiat HMGs(both water-cooled and air-cooled), but I'm not sure whether these guns were bought during civil war period or were bought from Mussolini in 1930s.
Italian rifles were cheap at that time. I remember seeing a table of the prices of different kinds of rifles in China from 1920s. Chinese and Japanese rifles were the cheapest, and next, the Italian ones. The price of one Italian rifle was only about 1/3 of the price of a Mauser M1896(the box cannon). Now you can understand why "pistol troop"(手枪队) or "fully armed with box cannon" meant elite troops at that time.
I'm not an expert on smallarms...
P.S. Do you have some further information about the Yunnan army's French tanks you mentioned in the thread "Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2", especially photos?

[SASH155]

I am constantly revising the doc., and it has changed some since I posted this rough draft, but what I do know is that Chiang Tso Lin (Jiang Siao Lin???) in Manchuria acquired some FT-17s (some 30 to 35 examples by some reports), some of ex-French army origin. Some may have come through Russia (they do not seem to have been Soviet MS series light tanks, however). P.S. Help me out with English transliterations of Chinese proper names in the current Yale style.