Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

Discussions on all aspects of China, from the beginning of the First Sino-Japanese War till the end of the Chinese Civil War. Hosted by YC Chen.
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YC Chen
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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#16

Post by YC Chen » 30 Jun 2010, 03:42

Baoding, is that 保定?
Maybe can find some info for you.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#17

Post by kanpai » 30 Jun 2010, 05:39

保定, correct I think. Anything is helpful. Thanks!


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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#18

Post by YC Chen » 01 Jul 2010, 03:57

Hmm... There was an ordance factory in Baoding during that period, it was called "BAODING XIU XIE SUO"(保定修械所). It seems that this factory belonged to 29th army. It could build grenades, bayonets and rifle parts. It was moved to Baoji(宝鸡), Shanxi(陕西) Province in Dec 1942.
This factory is not large, so it was called a "XIU XIE SUO"(ordance-fixing workshop) but not a "BING GONG CHANG"(兵工厂, arsenal). Sorry can't find more info on this factory now. Maybe more info can be found in our library.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#19

Post by kanpai » 01 Jul 2010, 18:56

Thank you very much for the information. I think the information we have about a factory dates from 1937 and prior. I'll continue looking. Thanks again.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#20

Post by kanpai » 01 Jul 2010, 20:24

Another tantalizing tidbit we have in family lore from our Chinese grandmother is that one of her grandfathers was apparently a warlord who may have governed five "provinces." None of this is substantiated by anything other than what we were told by her when she was still alive.

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Leonard
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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#21

Post by Leonard » 06 Jul 2010, 11:09

kanpai wrote:Another tantalizing tidbit we have in family lore from our Chinese grandmother is that one of her grandfathers was apparently a warlord who may have governed five "provinces." None of this is substantiated by anything other than what we were told by her when she was still alive.
Warlord of 5 provinces. That would most likely be Sun Chuan-Fang: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Chuanfang

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#22

Post by SVaaka » 07 Jul 2010, 10:17

Well to be honest this listing of US gent gives so much false information that it can not be cosidered very trustworthy. If he cannot find true import/export numbers of Finnish and Estonian FN GP-35, which is quite easy how can other figures be trusted? Also as far as I know Sweden never purchased FN GP-35´s, neither did Swedish police use FN 1910/22´s, belgians never have used postols in cal 9.00x17 , not even model 1910/22 FN or according to my and knowledge defence ministerium of ex-Czechoslovakia did Czechs army or police never ever use any variation of FN-pistols what so ever. So what other details are wrong?

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#23

Post by SASH155 » 07 Jul 2010, 20:01

Dear SVaaka, if you have a problem with my research, take it up with me personally, not in this insulting and denigrating manner, and in a public forum to boot. This document took several years to research, which is still ongoing BTW, and until someone here or yourself can outright refute what I wrote with some actual data, export quantities, service histories etc, then come to me with these corrections, not blanket claims and unsupported criticisms... Or, you can kindly rewrite it yourself since you are so smart and obviously far more knowledgeable than myself about this subject. The ordnance history of most countries is far more complex than most realize, and many countries purchased limited quantities of weapons which were never standardized. SASH155
BTW I do not think I ever made any claim that the Swedes had purchased GP-35's in any significant quantity prior to 1940, if ever. They certainly never officially used the pistol after 1945. However, they did use the FN Mle. 1903 in 9x20mm Browning Long.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#24

Post by SASH155 » 07 Jul 2010, 20:15

In the source material ("The FN High Power Pistol" from Collector Grade Publications and in Hogg's "Pistols of the World) it was reported that the Swedes took delivery of appr. 1000 pistols prior to May 1940. This claim is based on FN company documents. So if the sources I have used are all wrong, then all or most data published since 1945 on Chinese weapons' imports is incorrect. Some is undoubtedly incorrect, I tried to confirm with the few resources available (photos etc...) the veracity of the information reproduced in the documents.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#25

Post by SVaaka » 08 Jul 2010, 21:27

Well my writing was not meant to be a insult - sorry if you get his kind of a feeling. What come to Ian Hogg and info he gives, it just leaves too much to desire. There is only one way to check if some one bought some thing, this is to write a polite letter and ask, I have personally done this. I know that Sveden did not buy FN GP-35 - cause we live next to them, we visit them and we have collegues there, and we have not seen one - so? And think about the claimed date - May 1940 ? Impossible. I know and all know in Finland that Sweden used FN Mle 1903 . we have seen them and we have them in our collections with swedish acceptance stamps. Mr Ian Hogg writes so much ..... , best part in his books are the photos. Best claims what these writers have made is that FN Mle 1903 would sometimes have been manufactured in cal. 9.00x 17. We have a lot of good writers Mr Blake R. Stevenson,Mr Jan C. Still and so - they seem to do something else but just to write and re-write book after an other to make just business. So I would not rely too much on Ian Hogg.
And to last - all this info from finnish/estonian/lithuanian contract can be easily be find in WWW. It is very good thing that one makes recharch work, good for you.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#26

Post by SASH155 » 08 Jul 2010, 22:27

I said in the document in relation to any Swedish GP-35s "prior to" May 1940, which means before the fall of Belgium, when FN was still free to sell pistols to whomever. As to your contention that Sweden never bought GP-35s, just having never personally seen one there does not necessarily mean Sweden did not at some point buy a few of them. The pistols may have simply been for trials, or an initial lot acquired in possible preparation to produce the pistol locally at the Karl Gustav arsenal.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#27

Post by Sturm78 » 21 Jul 2010, 15:00

Hi all,

Can anybody Id. this MG?
MG08 on Sokolov carriage?? :?

Regards Sturm78
Attachments
Chinese MG on Sokolov mount-.JPG
Chinese MG on Sokolov mount-.JPG (90.14 KiB) Viewed 1363 times

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#28

Post by SASH155 » 22 Jul 2010, 02:31

Russian 7.62x54mmR M-1905 Maxim gun; note smooth water jacket, Sokolov mount, muzzle booster. Good find.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#29

Post by YC Chen » 22 Jul 2010, 12:33

The Russian Maxims saw extensive service with warlord armies. Gongxian Arsenal(巩县兵工厂) in Hebei(河北) copied this kind of HMG in 1930s and this was the only Maxim HMGs made in China which are not 7.92mm.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 1

#30

Post by Sturm78 » 23 Jul 2010, 11:27

Thank you very much for your help, SASH155 and YC Chen. :D

Regards Sturm78

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