Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

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SASH155
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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by SASH155 » 28 Jan 2012 00:53

Thanks for all of the updates. These are alot of edits to come as better information comes to light. I agree that the tankette in the lower photo seems to be from some of the suspension details and the vision port to be a CV-35 (aka L3/35) not a CV-33/ L3/33.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by YC Chen » 28 Jan 2012 17:40

SASH155 wrote:Thanks for all of the updates. These are alot of edits to come as better information comes to light. I agree that the tankette in the lower photo seems to be from some of the suspension details and the vision port to be a CV-35 (aka L3/35) not a CV-33/ L3/33.
I must say your list is really, really amazing, it'll even be more helpful if you list your sources. I hope everyone can help updating it to make it more complete and accurate.
P.S. Can anyone identify the little gun that I posted?

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by SASH155 » 29 Jan 2012 01:37

You mean the crude looking one above the 65mm canon de montagne mle. 1906? It might be one of those locally made improvised mortars. Putting a bibliography together is one of many tasks still to be completed. Most of the info comes from perusing my personal library or searches on the web.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by YC Chen » 10 Feb 2012 04:35

I would like to ask what make you think that Schneider M1907 went to China? A recent Chinese magazine article did say that a number of this gun was imported by the Imperial army before 1911, but I haven't found any information to support that.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by SASH155 » 11 Feb 2012 23:16

Do you mean the 65mm mle. 1906? Then, who in China had them?

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by YC Chen » 12 Feb 2012 12:27

SASH155 wrote:Do you mean the 65mm mle. 1906? Then, who in China had them?
No, I mean this one you have mentioned in your list:

"*75mm: Schneider M-1907 (Model MD) mountain gun. It has been reported that China purchased some Schneider mountain guns before the 1911 revolution, the most likely candidate being its Model of 1907/M-1908 Model MD commercial mountain gun which was also built for Bulgaria and Turkey in 75mm, and in 70mm for Italy (M-1908), Portugal, Serbia and Spain (M-1908)."

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by SASH155 » 13 Feb 2012 17:11

The entry is based on deduction of what likely took place based on the available source materials. The Imperial government and later the Republic bought weapons in small lots typically, a few here then a few there. Almost anything made commercially at the time by either Schneider or Krupp was liable to enter the Chinese arsenal, particularly the small mountain guns.

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Type 18 8.8cm field gun

Post by YC Chen » 27 Feb 2012 04:41

Hello,
This is a photo of Type 18 8.8cm field gun made in Shanxi. I think it looks quite advanced and is not an old rigid-mount gun.
I have gathered some information on this gun but I don't have them in my hand so I have to rely on my memory. The total number of this kind of gun produced is not large(can't remember exactly but 20~30) because many important components had to be imported from Germany. It had a range over 10000m(there are other data available but I can only remember this). And another source stated that even in the siege of Taiyuan in 1949, this gun was still feared by the Communists and was considered Yan Xishan's most powerful "secret weapon".
Photo below was taken in the military museum in Beijing.
China did copied a kind of German rigid-mount 8.7cm gun, but that was back in 1900s in Hanyang Arsenal.
So what's the original German type of this gun? Anyone knows?
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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by nuyt » 28 Feb 2012 18:08

Fantastic!

This might be the Liao Made Type 18 88mm field gun, a "copy" of Solothurn 88mm field gun.
There are several post son The Overvalwagen Forum (http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... inese+guns!) about this mystery weapon!
It appears it was a Rheinmetall 9 cm L31 gunhowitzer (mentioned in the Dutch Militaire Spectator
http://www.kvbk-cultureelerfgoed.nl/MS_ ... 1-0048.PDF), already built in 1918.
Then after the war sold to China through Solothurn of Switzerland, a company or brand also used by R'metall to develop automatic weapons.
Of similar background was the Chinese 10,5cm mountain howitzer.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by YC Chen » 02 Mar 2012 04:40

nuyt wrote:Fantastic!

This might be the Liao Made Type 18 88mm field gun, a "copy" of Solothurn 88mm field gun.

Of similar background was the Chinese 10,5cm mountain howitzer.
Thanks a lot for revealing the background of this gun! This gun is often mislabelled as"of German Gruson design" in some Chinese books and this confused me a lot.
However, as this gun was made in Shanxi Province, it should be called "Jin made", not "Liao made".
I'll dig out the information on this gun and translate it here later.
BTW, Could you please tell me what the pdf document is talking about? I cannot read it. And, what's the relationship between this gun and the 10.5cm howitzer? Were they both designed for German army in the end of WW1? Did they use interchangeable parts, like carriages?

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by nuyt » 02 Mar 2012 16:40

The pdf just mentions the 9cm L31 as one of the gunhowitzers developed after WW1. Nothing on China.
The 10,5cm mountain howitzer supposedly was delivered to China in the same way: developed by Rheinmetall, then marketed through Solothurn and built or assembled in China.
Looking forward to your data on the gun.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by YC Chen » 03 Mar 2012 15:20

Some information on the 8.8cm and 10.5cm guns made in Shanxi:
"Not only can the Shanxi arsenal build 7.5cm mountain guns, but they can also build a number of 10.5cm mountain guns and 8.8cm field guns. The 8.8cm field guns can reach the rage of 11km and is much lighter than some other guns of its kind. In 1928, the blueprints and some specific machinearies were introduced from Germany, along with some German engineers. The successful copying of 8.8cm field guns encuraged the Chinese gunmakers a lot and also taught them the Eourpean system of designing and building guns."
"10.5cm mountain guns could fire a 12kg shell and this is double the weight of a 7.5cm mountain gun shell, but its rage was shorter than the 7.5cm mountain gun(...)The 8.8cm gun had a range of 11km and weighed 1400kg, but this gun could be easily transported by horse, so the mobility was not affcted. However, the gun is very complicated, the barrel is of two layers(7.5cm mountain gun had only one layer), and some specified materials and even some components were directedly imported from Germany, and this limited its production number. "
These information is from an unpublished master degree thesis of Shanxi University, "Non-standarization: Reflection About Shanxi's weapon industry before Anti-Japanese War", 2005
I have also dug out some other information and will translate them later.

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by YC Chen » 04 Mar 2012 12:51

Have found some more on an old Chinese book:
"In order to encourage officers to support home-built weapons, Taiyuan arsenal employed some German advisors. They advised the arsenal to copy German 10.5cm heavy mountain gun and 8.8cm field gun. The mountain gun had a range of 8000m and the field gun 11000m. The original plan is to build 36 each, but only 24 of the mountain guns and 12 of the field guns were finished before 1937. "

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Re: Armaments of China and Siam to 1949 Part 2

Post by nuyt » 11 Mar 2012 13:21

Thanks for that info. Pity you dont have acccess to TOF anymore. But we did not reach any conclusions on that tread before your info came up!
Thanks,
Nuyt

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