AA gun?

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elias2365
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AA gun?

Post by elias2365 » 04 Jul 2010 00:09

Brady wrote:Interesting Chinese AA Gun, anyone have a clue as to what it is?>

Image
Hi there everybody. My name is Marcelo; and I was surfing the net when I found this incredible picture
of what I believe it`s a couple of Chinese soldiers with a German or a Swiss 20 mm SEMAG Anti Aircraft gun
very similar of those that the Bolivian Army used against the Paraguayans durirng the Chaco War.
Some were captured by the Paraguayans and used them against Bolivian fortifications to clear them
Bolivian airplanes and also machine guns nests. The Ethiopians/Abyssinians used them to against the
Italian Regia Aeronautica when the fascists invaded their country. Unfortunatelly it seems that there are many
denominations for this AA MG. in the net and there is some confusion about it. To be honest I really don`t know what
model is. But I`m Pretty shure that is a Semag. In some other places it`s called Mod. 1921; Mod 1923 ; M.23 or Oerlikon Mod. F. Hoping to be of any help to you. Please let me know. Congratulations for this incredible post
because all the photograph are amazing and I wish you all the best. Marcelo.

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hisashi
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Re: China Incident

Post by hisashi » 04 Jul 2010 02:46

elias, thank you for providing keywords for identification.
According to many sites including Wikipedia on Oerlikon 20 mm cannon, rights on German Becker 20mm cannon was sold to Swiss SEMAG under Versailles Treaty. After SEMAG failed in 1924, Oerlikon bought rights and facilities for their 20mm gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon

As you pointed out, gun joint and square magazine seems the same as SEMAG M/23 used in Finnland.

FINNISH ARMY 1918 - 1945 WEBSITE
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AA_GUNS1.htm

elias2365
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Re: AA gun?

Post by elias2365 » 05 Jul 2010 20:20

hi Hisashi, nice to meet you. You`re right; that is how is called mostly on those sites you name them wich
I check them too, but from where I get my info is mostly from Spanish books and especialized magazines of
weaponry and also historians like Artemio Mortera Perez and Lucas Molina Franco whom called that AA Gun as SEMAG.
I do not why this is so, even; I found in some other sites that this exactly weapon is identificated as an Oerlikon
M.1921 or M.1923 and also as Oerlikon Mod. L. Those Spaniard authors that I mencioned above; they say that a
same kind of weapon was used in Anti-Tank mode by the Republicans during the Civil War and other historians say
that the ship that was bootlegging them into Republican side was captured by the fascists but they never used them.
It seems that they get the AA mode with a tripod.
To add more confusion on this topic; Lucas Franco and Artemio Mortera and others; mentioned another type of
Oerlikon 20 mm AAG used by the Republicans:: the Oerlikon L. Mod 1931 with double barrels called
by the authors as Oerlikon Mod. Antiguo (old model or type) or known as Oerlikon Mod. Boliviano (Bolivian model or type)
that was used by the Bolivians during the Chaco War; wich doesn`t appear in none of the sites on the net.
Only in a couple is mentioned but not any picture of it.
2 years ago I found a couple of diferent photos of this weapon but none very clear or in a good size to study it; but all
those forums about the Chaco War are closed by now, and I`m unable to find the same photograph again.
that weapon was sold by the Paraguayans and the Bolivians via an Spaniard embassador called Gordon Ordas; who was buying airplanes and weapons for the Republicans. let me check this better and I let you know about it.

elias2365
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Re: AA gun?

Post by elias2365 » 06 Jul 2010 22:10

Hi there!!I found this photo of an ex-Bolivian SEMAG, captured by the Paraguayans and managed by them during the Chaco War.
semag.jpg
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elias2365
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Re: AA gun?

Post by elias2365 » 06 Jul 2010 23:55

Well that`s the other picture of the SEMAG in Abyssinian o Ethiopian hands. Actually in Haile Selassie`s during a visit to his troops on the front. It is said the the Ethiopian AA guns beat the hell of th Italian fascists planes in that war.
But it looks to me as a very close or the same model to the Chinese crew picture.
http://images.suite101.com/462903_com_h ... ldiers.gif
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elias2365
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Re: AA gun?

Post by elias2365 » 07 Jul 2010 20:38

well here`s another picture from the Getty Collection showing an Abyssinian/Ethiopian Imperial Guard in 1935
manning a Semag or Oerlikon 20 mm AA Gun
semag.jpg
this is the original caption under the photo :: The Abyssinia (Ethiopia) - Italy War, pic: 1936, An Abyssinian antiquated anti-aircraft gun at Addis Ababa, After border disputes between Italian Somaliland and Abyssinia Mussolini used this to invade Abyssinia with his forces in October 1935, The poorly equipped Abyssinian forces were unable to stop the Italian advance and by May 1936 the invaders had forced Abyssinia to accept Italian rule (Photo by Popperfoto/Getty Images)
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alcantur
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Re: AA gun?

Post by alcantur » 31 May 2011 22:48

I have some good pics of the the Oerlikon L. Mod 1931 with double barrels also known as Oerlikon K.
This was the first Oerlikon L used only for AA purposes, as its predecessors ( SEMAG/Oerlikon L Models 1921 and 1923) were intended to be used as AT or AA gun, just needed adjust the mounting for horizontal or vertical fire.
Bolivia purchased 12 model 1921, 10 model 1923 and 56 Model 1931 before the end of Chaco War, and some more in the late 40's for a total of 146 between all the models. Bolivia also purchased 10 Oerlikon SSG antintank rifles.
I'll try to post the photos later.

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AVV
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Re: AA gun?

Post by AVV » 01 Jun 2011 09:42

Hello!
alcantur wrote:I'll try to post the photos later.
It would be nice of you. Looking forward to your photos!

Best regards, Aleks

antinaksi
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Re: AA gun?

Post by antinaksi » 16 Nov 2011 21:43

alcantur wrote:I have some good pics of the the Oerlikon L. Mod 1931 with double barrels also known as Oerlikon K.
This was the first Oerlikon L used only for AA purposes, as its predecessors ( SEMAG/Oerlikon L Models 1921 and 1923) were intended to be used as AT or AA gun, just needed adjust the mounting for horizontal or vertical fire.
Bolivia purchased 12 model 1921, 10 model 1923 and 56 Model 1931 before the end of Chaco War, and some more in the late 40's for a total of 146 between all the models. Bolivia also purchased 10 Oerlikon SSG antintank rifles.
I'll try to post the photos later.
Hi Alacantur; nice to meet you. I was fomerly elias2365. I would love to see those pictures you have to share
this are some of the pictures I found in the net

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Re: AA gun?

Post by antinaksi » 16 Nov 2011 21:52

392042_10150357474096666_677581665_8502223_1028292422_n.jpg
376440_10150357484351666_677581665_8502279_1454661367_n.jpg
381038_10150357492086666_677581665_8502304_259682810_n.jpg
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antinaksi
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Re: AA gun?

Post by antinaksi » 16 Nov 2011 21:57

some more pics
375735_10150357489806666_677581665_8502298_1326623033_n.jpg
316731_10150357467876666_677581665_8502207_635462798_n.jpg
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antinaksi
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Re: AA gun?

Post by antinaksi » 17 Nov 2011 00:33

well I hope that my pictures they help somebody. Alcantur sorry to mispell your name up there.
In picture 1 it seems that is a Semag/ Oerlikon Type F/L I can`t tell. the only way is to know what kind of cartridge used it and it also seems like a variation from another angle of the photo posted by me up there the 06 Jul 2010 with the same Paraguayan dotation. It could be an Oerlikon Type L Mod. 1929 o Type 1S Mod.1928; I can`t tell. 11/09/1932. thanks to Kenia Salinas. http://museovirtualdelparaguay.org/v1/?p=2310
Picture 2 is a photo from a Bolivian site and shows also a trio of Paraguayan soldiers posing with a captured Semag/Oerlikon 20mm AA Gun formerly Bolivian during the Chaco War. from the Tocorre forum :: http://www.tocorre.com/es/main.forum.ph ... tid=149091
Photo 3 is "maybe" one of those Twin Barrel Oerlikons called also or known as Oerlikon Mod. Antiguo (old model or type) or known as Oerlikon Mod. Boliviano (Bolivian model or type) that was used by the Bolivians during the Chaco War and sold to Felix Gordon Ordas, Spanish Ambassador in Mexico during the Spanish Civil War that nobody can tell to much of them until finally the Spanish Historian Artemio Mortera Pérez in his new books "Ametralladoras en España (1867/1936)" and "Ametralladoras en España (1936/1939)" say about this AAG that is an Oerlikon Mod. L or ZL. (Z for Zwillinge?). any clues??? please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Photo 4 also from the net and from the Bolivian newspaper La Patria:: http://www.lapatriaenlinea.com/?nota=43030 and is a note about Orureños soldiers (from Oruro, Bolivia) fighting at the Chaco War during the Battle of Boqueron by Jesús Elías Lucero
And finally photo 5 showing a complete artillery crew of Bolivian gunners handing an AAMG described as Type K Mod.1931, cal. 20x110mm twin barrel

antinaksi
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Re: AA gun?

Post by antinaksi » 17 Nov 2011 00:42

this one is another Chinese SEMAG/Oerlikon (who knows what model or type ?)possibly used during the Battle of Shanghai in 1932
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antinaksi
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Re: AA gun?

Post by antinaksi » 17 Nov 2011 16:22

393253_10150362445416666_677581665_8519622_1048455291_n.jpg
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antinaksi
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Re: AA gun?

Post by antinaksi » 17 Nov 2011 16:24

311401_10150354338466666_677581665_8488773_456817395_n.jpg
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