Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

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Nie-junmen
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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 09 Apr 2010 19:09

9 Soviet tanks MS-1 (derivative of Renault FT) took part in attack of stations Zhalainoer and Manzhouli. In spite of bad organization of the attak they helped to take both stations.

Zhalainoer was taken after bypass maneouvre when Soviet troops captured the hill which allowed to make the bombardment of all Chinese position. The frontal attack of the Chinese position was useless as Chinese troops aranged big anti-tank moat and used their field guns to stop tanks' attack. Chinese stood firmly and retreated only when the commanding hill had been captured. In the first day 2 tanks were damaged but 1 was repaired in the night.

Then tanks attacked Chinese fortifications in the area of Mother and Daughter hils and 1 tank was damaged by hand-grenade. Soviet rifles crowned the attack by seizing fortifications of Chinese troops. Only 7 tanks were able to go on fighting.

In Manzhouli Chinese troops tried to use hand-grenades to destroy tanks and only Soviet rifles rescued 1 tank from the total annihilation. 3 tanks were damaged but repaired after the battle.

MS-1 after the battle - Soviet technicians repairing the tank:
Image

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 09 Apr 2010 19:13

MS-1 (another abbreviation is T-18):
Image

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 09 Apr 2010 19:29

Chinese anti-tank moat and fortifications:
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 09 Apr 2010 20:04

Soviet troops had about 6100 infantry and 1600 cavalry in battles of Zhalainoer-Manzhouli at Nov. 17-20, 1929. They also had 9 tanks, about 70 cannons and 3 armoured trains. Aircrafts used to support army.

Chinese troops had about 15000 soldiers but had no tanks and much lesser cannons then in Soviet side. A lot of them were not real soldiers but former bandits (so calld bingfei in Chinese).

So that is why Chinese troops failed to hold their positions in Zhalainoer-Manzhouli region.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 10 Apr 2010 08:22

Nie-junmen wrote:
WestSand wrote:Hello Nie-junmen,
Would you please post some of the photos of Russian gunboats you mentioned?
Soviet aircraft-carrier "Amur", aircrafts and pilots, took part in this clash:
http://www.bellabs.ru/Fotab/KVGD/KVGD.html
Gunboat "Sun Yatsen"
Image
Scheme of gunboats "project Storm" which were the core of the Soviet Amur flotilla in 1929:
Image

I will try to find more in my another PC.
Thank you very much for your photo and plan!
But for unknown reason I can't see the enlarged plan. Would you please post the plan as an attachment?
Thanks!

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 10 Apr 2010 17:17

Let us try again - uniersal (river and sea) gunboat of "Storm" type, designed and built in 1911, re-armed in 1920 with captured English 120-mm. cannons
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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 12 Apr 2010 14:11

Thank you for your plan!
BTW, do you have some detailed info on the Sanjiangkou(三江口) battle between Soviet and Chinese navies from Russian side?
Here are two Chinese articles:
http://www.beiyang.org/wenku/wenku97.htm
http://60.250.180.26/ming/2501.html

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 12 Apr 2010 20:32

WestSand wrote:Thank you for your plan!
BTW, do you have some detailed info on the Sanjiangkou(三江口) battle between Soviet and Chinese navies from Russian side?
Here are two Chinese articles:
http://www.beiyang.org/wenku/wenku97.htm
http://60.250.180.26/ming/2501.html
Of course. I will find the text and post here.

BTW have you any data about Lahasusu fortress? The map of the battle (even only geographical) and photos of the fortress?

The main problem of Chinese was that the best ship of Admiral Sheng's flotilla was much more weak than any of Soviet gunboats - you may compare them as any Soviet ship has at least 4 x 120 mm. cannons vs. 1 x 120 mm. cannon on "Jiangheng". So many Chinese ships were sunk momentarily by gunfire od gunboats and bombing from aircraft-carrier "Amur"'s aircrafts.

BTW initially "Amur" was the gunboat of type I posted here and was re-built especially to allow aircrafts follow Soviet Amur flotilla in any expedition.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 14 Apr 2010 13:56

Sorry, I'm not an expert and I don't know much about this event :? . However, I'll try to find something you want if you give me the Chinese name of "Lahasusu".
BTW, some Chinese sources mentioned that the Chinese air force and the White Russian soldiers in Fengtian army also took part in the fight. Can you find anything about these in Russian sources?
And I noticed that there are images of a rocket in you plan. Where were the rocket launchers on these gunboats?

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 14 Apr 2010 21:38

WestSand wrote:Sorry, I'm not an expert and I don't know much about this event :? . However, I'll try to find something you want if you give me the Chinese name of "Lahasusu".
I think you name this battle as th Battle of Sanjiangkou due to the fact that the battle took place in the mouth of Sungari among islands.

In Russia it is called "Sungari operation" and the first stage is called as the battle for Lahasusu as the fortified camp of Chinese troops on the reverside was called Lahasusu. I believe it is Nanai word as well as Fugding (Fukejin). What is the modern Chinese name of that place?
BTW, some Chinese sources mentioned that the Chinese air force and the White Russian soldiers in Fengtian army also took part in the fight. Can you find anything about these in Russian sources?
Yes, it was mentioned that in "Mishanfu operation" Soviet airforces destroyed 5 Chinese aircrafts Breguet-19. Those aircrafts were the only Chinese aircrafts which tried to take part in the clash.

Then in the vicinity of Zhalainoer it was seen a Chinese liasion aircraft which tried to get the message from Zhang Xuelang to Chinese troops encircled by Soviet troops. But the pilot threw the container with the message to Soviet positions by mistake and the secret order was captured by Soviet generals. It made the task easier for them to smash encircled Chinese troops.

But I am against the idea to blame the pilot as it was very difficult to determine where it were Soviet or Chinese troops - in Moshanfu operation one Soviet pilot had to land in order to advise the secret information to the batallion of Soviet rifles and he remembered that he was awfully afraid when he had to land as he was not sure that he determined the troops properly. He was very happy when he got known that he was right!

White Guard was used by Zhang Xueliang to engage Soviet troops but there were not direct indications of the facts of their presence in besieged Zhalainoer or in Lahasusu/Fugding.
WestSand wrote: And I noticed that there are images of a rocket in you plan. Where were the rocket launchers on these gunboats?
No rockets at that time. Probably you mistook the shafts with propellers for rockets! I add another photo of the gunboat to make situation clear:
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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by oirob » 15 Apr 2010 12:14

Nie-junmen wrote: Chinese troops had about 15000 soldiers but had no tanks and much lesser cannons then in Soviet side. A lot of them were not real soldiers but former bandits (so calld bingfei in Chinese).
Could it be that the men with the black fur hats on the first photo on site 1 of this thread are member of those "former bandits"?
Any more photos or information about them?
How is the chinese writing for "bingfei"?

cheers
Oirob

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 15 Apr 2010 14:47

oirob wrote: Could it be that the men with the black fur hats on the first photo on site 1 of this thread are member of those "former bandits"?
It is so called "Manchurian hat". It appeared first AFAIK in Russian troops in Dongbei in 1896-1905. Then it was widely spread among local bandits and militia for convenience in day-to-day service in severe climatic conditions.

So we can not divide soldiers by this feature.
Any more photos or information about them?
Let us seek for them together :D

A friend of mine wrote a book about honghuzi and devoted a chapter to bingfei. I will try to render it later.
oirob wrote: How is the chinese writing for "bingfei"?
兵匪

Zhang Zuolin was the typical bingfei general commanded bingfei troops (about half of them were bandits before joining the army).

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 15 Apr 2010 21:12

Some Soviet aircrafts of Separate Far Eastern Army in 1929.

Fokker D-XI jf 5th Aircraft Squad in Spassk, 1929:
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Staff of 5th Aircraft Squad after battle of Mishanfu (I mentioned pilots from this squad which destroyed Chinese Breguet-19 airplanes and then assisted rifles in defence against Chinese cavalry):
Image
Soviet aircraft of 19th Aircraft Squad with the symbol of fist - it was the symbol of anti-imperialism resistance of Red Army:
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Soviet 19th Aircraft Squad in 1929:
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Soviet 68th Separate Naval Aircraft Squad in 1929 - MR-1 type aircrafts. That squad took part in Sungari operation. The officer in the left is the commander of the squad Edward Lucht (from Estonia). It is stated that he personally sunk some Chinese men-of-war in Lahasusu and Fugding:
Image

Please pay attention - no rockets at that time.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 16 Apr 2010 11:10

"Probably you mistook the shafts with propellers for rockets!" Yes I did! :oops:
As a kind of very rugged aircrafts, Breguet-19s were widely used by Chinese army at that time. Were those aircrafts destroyed on land?
BTW, a Chinese article mentioned that it was very difficult for the Chinese engineers to start the engines of the aircrafts because of the cold climate there.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by oirob » 16 Apr 2010 13:25

Nie-junmen wrote:
oirob wrote: Any more photos or information about them
Let us seek for them together :D
Ok then I'll start :lol: :

found this - http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4a796ec00100gror.html
5SC1J4FJ00AR0001[1].jpg
5SC1J6FL00AR0001[1].jpg
jdtzj.jpg

Cheers
Oirob
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