Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

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Nie-junmen
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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 16 Apr 2010 19:30

WestSand wrote: As a kind of very rugged aircrafts, Breguet-19s were widely used by Chinese army at that time. Were those aircrafts destroyed on land?
Yes. A lot of young Soviet pilots longed for air-battle but all 5 Chinese planes were destroed on land by Soviet bombers.
WestSand wrote: BTW, a Chinese article mentioned that it was very difficult for the Chinese engineers to start the engines of the aircrafts because of the cold climate there.
I have never heard about any peculiarities about starting engines in October-November 1929. Probably the problem was not so acute for Soviet planes.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 16 Apr 2010 19:40

oirob wrote:
Ok then I'll start :lol: :

found this - http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4a796ec00100gror.html
They are not bingfei - they are "Liaoxi Yiyong jun" (Righteous and Heroic Army of Liaoxi Province). Guys with spears seems to be members of a local self-defence detachement (something like Hongqianghui).

Please compare it to these pics:
Image
Image

These guys seem to be the cavalry detachement of northern militarists but I am not sure:
Image

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 29 Apr 2010 17:09

I have read the diary of a Russian White Army officer who fought for Zhang Zongchang as mercemary. He put down in his records that Soviet Union made an agreement with central government of China as well as with Zhang Zuolin regarding KVZhD (the Chinese-Oriental Railroad). It assumed that the revenue from the railroad should be splitted 50:50 between Mukden and Moscow, but USSR used those money to support enemies (Communists and their allies) of Zhang Zuolin. So Zhang Zuolin made an agreement with USSR which turned to be very harmful for himself. The officer said it could be the source of beg problems. The officer perished in 1926 and he could not know about the clash in 1929.

But the reason is very interesting - in all Soviet sources it is stated that Zhang Zuolin (and Zhang Xueliang after him) escalated the situation and deliberately led the situation to the border clash. It seems to be odd as Zhang Zuolin had a lot of prolems within China and had not enough troops. In case if the record of the mentioned diary is true the reason of the clash seems to be much more obvious.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 30 Apr 2010 11:55

A nice Chinese article on this event: http://wenku.baidu.com/view/9a77dec789e ... 3b758.html
However it doesn't mention the action of Chinese aircrafts.
P.S. I'm very interested in those White Russians who fought for Marshal Zhang Zongchang(张宗昌). I have collected a number of Chinese materials on Zhang Zongchang and his White Russian troops. However, none of them has photos.
Here's a Russian link with great photos from a book(thank Oirob for the link!):
http://reibert.info/forum/showthread.php?p=962446
One Chinese article mentioned that some White Russian photographers in Zhang's army made some films of the White Russian troops. I wonder if any of these films still exists today? And do you have any further information on the White Russian troops in China? It seems that they didn't only fight for Zhang Zhongchang, but also for Zhang Zuolin and Manchokuo(accroding to the Osprey book "Civil War Chinese Army").
P.S. I also want to learn more about the man Siminoff(not sure if it's the correct spelling, he was called "米罗夫" of "谢苗诺夫" in China) and the final fate of Russian armored wagon "Заамурец"-how did it fall into Chinese hand?

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 30 Apr 2010 11:59

I have a photo which shows Fengtian Army 's cavalry wearing NRA type caps. Maybe those soldiers with caps were from some elite units.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by oirob » 03 May 2010 12:49

Some photos of the Soviet forces:
narfrontrunners_10000052A[1.jpg
narfrontrunners_10000051A[1.jpg
I'm not sure about the third one, but could be the same place/time.
ORchAO-68_11[1].jpg
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Last edited by oirob on 03 May 2010 14:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by oirob » 03 May 2010 12:52

Text of the first two pictures above:
1.)
narfrontrunners_10000052B[1.jpg
2.)
narfrontrunners_10000051B[1.jpg
cheers
Oirob
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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by oirob » 03 May 2010 13:04

Two more (this time apparently not "Soviet" but "russian" as well :lol: ):
img992[1].jpg
img994[1].jpg
img993[1].jpg
(same date, but one soviet the other one "white"???)

regards
Oirob
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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 03 May 2010 13:07

Exactly the same kind of armored train:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=163878 (the sixth photo)

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 08 May 2010 09:12

A list of Chinese troops which took part in the "anti-Russia battle" in 1929(sorry in Chinese):
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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 12 May 2010 20:22

oirob wrote:Some photos of the Soviet forces:
narfrontrunners_10000052A[1.jpg
narfrontrunners_10000051A[1.jpg
I'm not sure about the third one, but could be the same place/time.
ORchAO-68_11[1].jpg
1) All 3 generals didn't take part in that incident.
2) I am afraid it is not relevant photo as the first battle took place in Sanjiangkou/Lahasusu on 12.10.1929 and soldiers were dressed in coats. Here we can see soldiers in summer uniform.
3) It is a pic of Soviet aircraft carrier "Amur" which took the active part in Sanjiangkou battle and in the battle for Fugdin (ch. Fukejin or Fujin)

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 12 May 2010 20:25

WestSand wrote:A list of Chinese troops which took part in the "anti-Russia battle" in 1929(sorry in Chinese):
Very intersting. Many thanks. Is it a copy of an official document?

Have you the figures for each division and regiment - soldiers in a regiment, cannons in artillery regiment etc.?

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 12 May 2010 20:30

oirob wrote:Two more (this time apparently not "Soviet" but "russian" as well :lol: ):
img992[1].jpg
img994[1].jpg
img993[1].jpg
(same date, but one soviet the other one "white"???)

regards
Oirob
I suggest both of them are armoured trains of Zhang Zongchang's army - he had about 3000 of "White" Russian mercenaries and a very strong division of armoured trains manned with Russian crews (at first under the Colonel Kostrov, then some commanders changed each other quickly).

Thise troops were dismissed by Mukden officials in 1928. All trins were captured either by Guomindang, or by Feng Yuxiang, or Zhang Xueliang.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 12 May 2010 20:45

WestSand wrote:A nice Chinese article on this event: http://wenku.baidu.com/view/9a77dec789e ... 3b758.html
However it doesn't mention the action of Chinese aircrafts.
P.S. I'm very interested in those White Russians who fought for Marshal Zhang Zongchang(张宗昌). I have collected a number of Chinese materials on Zhang Zongchang and his White Russian troops. However, none of them has photos.
Here's a Russian link with great photos from a book(thank Oirob for the link!):
http://reibert.info/forum/showthread.php?p=962446
One Chinese article mentioned that some White Russian photographers in Zhang's army made some films of the White Russian troops. I wonder if any of these films still exists today? And do you have any further information on the White Russian troops in China? It seems that they didn't only fight for Zhang Zhongchang, but also for Zhang Zuolin and Manchokuo(accroding to the Osprey book "Civil War Chinese Army").
P.S. I also want to learn more about the man Siminoff(not sure if it's the correct spelling, he was called "米罗夫" of "谢苗诺夫" in China) and the final fate of Russian armored wagon "Заамурец"-how did it fall into Chinese hand?
1) Aircrafts (4 pcs) were destroyed on the ground. So tha author may not mention them as they did not play their role in the battle.
2) I have some diaries of those mercenaries in Russian. You can see pics from there by your link.
3) All films were sold to USA by "Milofu" (米罗夫) in 1928.
4) Russians were not only in Zhang Zongchang's troops, but in Feng Yuxiang's troops as well as in troops of Jiang Jieshi.
5) Grigory Semenov (谢苗诺夫, 1890-1946) was a Cossak General and he was suspected to be in close relations with Soviet intelligence services while staying in China. But in 1946 he was arrested by Soviet secret police SMERSh and then hanged in Moscow as "Japanese spy". Nikolay Merkulov (米罗夫,1869-1945) was a Minister of Defence in Provisional Priamurye Government, then he became an advisor in Zhang Zongchang's army and he is credited to be the creator of the Russian detachement of General Nechaev in Zhang's troops. But he was corrupted and used the detachement to make his own affairs with money. For his money-liking he was suspected to be the secret agent of Soviet intelligence services in China who tried to destroy the best "White" offocers physically as he stole all money for their salary, sold theis foodstuff to Chinese traders, made soldiers to buy only bad but extra-expensive uniform from his own factory in China etc. He died in Qingdao.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by Nie-junmen » 12 May 2010 20:51

WestSand wrote:I have a photo which shows Fengtian Army 's cavalry wearing NRA type caps. Maybe those soldiers with caps were from some elite units.
Do you mean Jiang Jieshi's army?

Could you show the pic?

And one more question - what is it: "Tsar Shichedo Nicou"
I have read it here:
http://60.250.180.26/ming/2504.html
It is not Russian words except for the word "Tsar". What is it?

And could you explain where Dongbei naval squad had its base? In Fugdin and Lahasusu? Or somewhere else? Had they any seaside naval bases? I guess that "Dinghai" was very big for Amur and Sungari. And I saw that there were 2nd and 3d squads of Dongbei Naval Squad.

Have you any infromation about Chinese Generals and Admiral Shen Honglie (沈鸿烈) were in charge during that clash?

Do you know this article?
http://www.beiyang.org/wenku/wenku97.htm

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