Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Discussions on all aspects of China, from the beginning of the First Sino-Japanese War till the end of the Chinese Civil War. Hosted by YC Chen.
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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 25 Jun 2011 09:09

Hmm...Maybe Dongyi really didn't have the twin 4.7inch... :?
But the reality of Dingyuan and Zhenyuan's QF guns was that it was proposed by Li Hongzhang, but the Qing government had no money to do so. So they went to the Yellow Sea with all their old guns... AFAIK, There is no Chinese article that says they had QF guns in 1894.
P.S. Would you like to give a short discription on the Soviet side's account of the battle of Sanjiangkou? I think it must be interesting to compare Chinese sources with Russian ones.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 25 Jun 2011 11:45

BTW, do you have more photos of the ships from the flotilla of Manchurian army? I'm now very interested in them...

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by 1929student » 04 Jul 2011 03:33

Dear sirs,

Writing a master's thesis on the 1929 war. However, the faculty has a very low opinion of information obtained on the internet as all source documentation must withstand peer review to be acceptable.

Is it possible for some of posting at this site (notably experts Nei-junmen and YC Chen) to provide source documentation (provenance) that would withstand academic review?

Many thanks,

1929student

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 06 Jul 2011 01:30

Hello,
In fact, I have mentioned some provenance of my Chinese articles in this thread. However, some of the books I mentioned are too old(published in 1980s) to be found by a foreigner. I don't know if you can read Chinese or Russian, if you can read neither of them, it will be difficult to get a overview of this war. If you can read Chinese, maybe I can share with you some articles that I have found, but I really don't have time to translate.
BTW, I'm not an expert on this subject, I'm just interested in it and I don't think I know much about it. :wink:

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by 1929student » 10 Jul 2011 04:30

Dear YC Chen,

I appreciate your modesty but you are very knowledgeable on this subject, more so than almost anyone I have been able to contact. Obtaining a number of very good Russian language articles has not been difficult.

But using the Russian language posting on this site is problematic. For example, the picture linked on page 5, section 2 of the converted monitor "Amur" serving as a seaplane tender provides enough information to cite in paper. However the photo of Tukhachevsky et al on page 4 of section 3 of this blog does not state what news agency published the photo, only a caption and a date making it almost impossible to use. There is also a widely used photo on the web of three Soviet officers holding the captured battle colors of the 15th Brigade that fought at Manchouli. It cannot be used because there is no information provided as to the source of the photo.

Do not read Chinese which is a burden but have studied Japanese which is of some limited value. For example, on page 12 of section 3 you posted an order of battle for the Northeast Frontier Defense Force from August 1929. It is not difficult to read the military units which is very helpful and that the commander of the 1st Army was named Wang. However, I cannot use the information as I cannot cite the source of the document.

Does this partially explain my request for help?

Thank you for your earlier response.

Regards,

1929student

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 10 Jul 2011 09:15

Hello
Please read the posts more carefully, I have stated the source of the list in one post: "The list I posted was from a old Chinese book-"Selected HIstory Materials of Liaoning Province No.8"(辽宁文史资料选辑 第八辑, maybe published in the 1980s). " :)
So you can read Russian? That's really an advantage. Maybe you can share with me some Russian materials that you have.
P.S. Do you have a plan or clearer photo of the monitor "Armur"? I'm curious about what the whole ship looked like.
YC Chen

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 10 Jul 2011 09:21

And are you interested in the White Russian mercenaries in China? In fact, I'm more interested in them than in this war... :D

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by 1929student » 11 Jul 2011 19:12

My Russian is weak but have friends who are fluent. Lensen, a noted American scholar on the conflict relied primarily two Soviet Russian sources to tell the story of war, Vladimir Kulagin and Nokolie Iakovlev’s Podvig Osoboi Dal’nevostochnoi [Campaign of the Special Far East (Army)] published in 1970 and N. P. Sunstov, A. I. Teleshensko, and M.P. Khvosikov’s Krasno-Zamyennaya Dal’nevostochnyi [Red Banner Far Eastern (Military District)] published in 1971.

Have five additional secondary sources published after 1974 obtained with the support of David Glantz, such as N. Agrov and N. F. Syngorky. Krasno-Zamyennaya Amurskaya Flotiliya [Red Banner: The Amur River Flotilla], 1976; Dishentsky, V. Razgrom Kitaiskia Militaristov v Raeone KVZhD v 1929 [Defeat of the Chinese Military in the CER Region in 1929]; Yu. M. Shchenkov, N. V. Ogarkov, ed. Manchzhuro-Chzhalainorskaiia Operatsiia 1929 [The Manchuria-Chalainor Operation 1929], 1979; N. V. Ogarkov, ed. Sovietsko-Kitaiskia Konflikt 1929 [The Soviet-Chinese Conflict of 1929], 1979; and ColGen G. F. Krivosheev’s. Grif Sekretnosty Snyat: Poteyery Voorozhyennik Sel USSR V Voynak, Boyevik Deystveyak e Voennoe Conflictak. [Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century], 1993; as well as chapter five of G. F. Kuzman’s 1959 work, Na Strazhe Mirnogo Truda (1921-1940) [On Guard for Peace (1921-1940)].

Did not know the "Amur," formerly "Whirlwind" of the "Typhoon" class river monitors, had been converted to a seaplane tender until visiting this site. Also http://www.navypedia.org/ships/russia/ru_of_tayfun.htm may help.

The rules for using sources are very rigid. You kindly provided: "Selected HIstory Materials of Liaoning Province No.8"(辽宁文史资料选辑 第八辑, maybe published in the 1980s). To be cited in an academic paper the following is needed;

Author or Editor:
Title: Selected HIstory Materials of Liaoning Province No.8"(辽宁文史资料选辑 第八辑)
City Published:
Name of Publisher:
Year Published: 198??
Page number(s) where the information is contained:

That is why it is difficult to use this website except as a path and not as an end.

Have been obtaining Chinese language sources by web search. For example, found a web article by the Anhui News published on 11 June 2007 entitled "The Forgotten War, the 1929 Sino-Soviet conflict." Then used a web-based translation tool to convert (rather imperfectly) the Chinese into English.

As for the White Russians, you earlier asked about a Soviet Russian film, there is a 1925 film on the Warlord Army in Manchuria and there was a published review on the web but cannot find the address. The only known existing copy is held by the Imperial War Museum in the UK. Would like to see it if I make it back there someday.

My interest in White Russians is focused on trying to verify the Soviet claims of White Russian border raids in 1929. The NEFDA never was noted for using White Russian troops except for manning armored trains. They did use White Russian officers as advisors (along with ex-service British and active-duty Japanese officers).

When Chang Tso-lin was alive he was allied with Zhang Zongchang/Chang Tsung-ch'ang who ruled the Shandong/Shantung peninsula and actively recruited White Russian mercenaries. Felix Patrikeeff published Russian Politics in Exile in 2002 which focuses primarily on the Russians peoples in Manchuria during the 1924-1931 period. There is not much on White Russian soldiers. There is a website: http://www.soviethistory.org that has a film clip of the street protests in Moscow following the seizure of the CER in 1929 as well as a clip showing the arrival of the new Chinese head of the CER in Harbin in 1929. Several White Russian officers and batmen are plainly visible on the platform awaiting the arrival of the Chinese general.

Thanks for your help,

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 12 Jul 2011 03:45

Hello,
Thank you very much for the Russian sources you provide. I'll check my books and provide you with more accurate info(I have the book in my hand so I'm not worried :D ). However, I suggest you to be patient and wait for Nie-junmen(It's not unusual for him to be absent for a few months). Anyway, he is a serious researcher and I only do this as a pastime.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by AVV » 12 Jul 2011 07:51

Hello!
YC Chen wrote: However, I suggest you to be patient and wait for Nie-junmen(It's not unusual for him to be absent for a few months). Anyway, he is a serious researcher and I only do this as a pastime.
You can also reach Nie-Junmen at Tsushima forum:
http://tsushima.su/forums/
Although he is not a frequent visitor there too.

Best regards, Aleks

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 12 Jul 2011 13:47

Hello all,
I have consulted Chinese expert Chen Yue about the improvised gunboat Dongyi and he said the photos Nie-junmen posted were also the first Dongyi photos he had ever seen.
He also added that the official report on the battle of Sanjiangkou from Chinese side has already lost(but as an optimist, I think one day we'll find it in a dark dusty corner of a library in Mainland, or more probably, Taiwan :D ), so the most reliable Chinese sources on this battle are memoirs of Shen Honglie and Fan Jie(范杰), especially the latter because Fan participated in the battle himself. In Fan's memoirs, the armament of Dongyi was two 4.7-inch naval guns brought from Tsingtao. However, Shen recalled that he ordered the two guns to be placed on two different ships(However, I have also read an article which said only one gun was brought from Tsingtao and it was mounted on Dongyi).
He also added that accroding to Chinese sources Dongyi was eventually sunk by its crew. So he assumed that this was photoed after it was salvaged by the Russians. He too can't fully explain the armament difference.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by The Edge » 12 Jul 2011 20:41

This ship, Dongyi, how big she was? :roll:

On the photo she looks rather small and too weak to carry two naval 4.7-inch guns (120mm).

At the photo with guns fully visible I see two Hotchkiss 47mm guns and a Vickers-Maxim "Pom-Pom" (37mm).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_3_pounder_Hotchkiss
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_1_pounder_pom-pom
Both were late XIX century weapons and both were considered as "quick-firing" (especially the "Pom-Pom" :wink: ).

Did someone confused 4.7-cm guns with 4.7-inch ones? :idea:

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 19 Jul 2011 11:06

YC Chen wrote:Hello,
Thank you very much for the Russian sources you provide. I'll check my books and provide you with more accurate info(I have the book in my hand so I'm not worried :D ). However, I suggest you to be patient and wait for Nie-junmen(It's not unusual for him to be absent for a few months). Anyway, he is a serious researcher and I only do this as a pastime.
Sorry, I'm too busy recently and almost forgot this.
This piece of information is from the book "Selected HIstory Materials of Liaoning Province No.21"(辽宁文史资料选辑 第二十一辑). I mistook it for No.8.
City Published: Shenyang
Name of Publisher: People's Press of Liaoning(辽宁人民出版社)
Year Published: 1987
Page number(s) where the information is contained: Page 50-51
Hope these will be helpful.

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by 1929student » 12 Aug 2011 18:18

Dear YC Chen,

Thanks for the information.

Did find my notes on the movie review (not the movie). Unfortunately it no longer freely available to read online.

Modern Warfare in China in 1924-1925
Historical Journal of Film, Radio & Television; 08/01/1995
Studies the importance of the documentary film `Modern Warfare in China in 1924-1925,' acquired by the Imperial War Museum in London, England. (AN 9509235508)

It is mainly about the Fengtien-Chili War. Per my notes, the review does mention that the White Russians serving under Zhang Zongchang/Chang Tsung-ch'ang were in the movie. It cited a brigade under General Nechayeff at Jinan, Shandong peninsula with a strength of 3,765 troops as well as a (subordinate?) regiment under General Tshehov and Colonel Makarenko numbering 1,500 troops. My notes also mention a Col Kostrov who was the Chief-of-Staff for a General Chu.

General Nechayeff was killed in battle in 1927. There is no record that any of these 1925 units were in the Northeast in 1929. They were a creation of Zhang Zongchang/Chang Tsung-ch'ang and operated from the Shandong peninsula.

The film also apparently shows the weapons and units in the armies under Zhang/Chang.

It would be very interesting to see the actual movie in order to really obtain as much information as possible.

Thanks

1929student

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Re: Sino-Soviet Border Clash 1929

Post by YC Chen » 13 Aug 2011 12:19

Hello,
You can take a look at this thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=177053
In it there are some views from the movie "Modern Warfare in China in 1924-1925". It can be ordered online but the price is too high for me.

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