Need ID Chinese artillery

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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by YC Chen » 11 Aug 2012 10:22

Another mystery for you all: a 57mm naval gun onboard one of the Ning class gunboats built in early 1930s. Can anyone identiy it?
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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by nuyt » 11 Aug 2012 10:51

Could be a Hotchkiss 6 pounder, there were thousands around in the world...mount looks a bit British to me...
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_6pounder_m1_pics.htm
Did you ever see pictures of HIH naval guns, the 7,5cm or the 15cm on Chinese ships?
BTW HIH Siderius offerred 5cm naval guns in that period...

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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by YC Chen » 12 Aug 2012 03:20

Chinese naval expert Chen Yue has been publishing series of articles on ROC navy ships on a Chinese magazine "Modern Ships". I have been following this series(mainly to collect photos of naval guns), but the problem is, I just missed the issue in which light crusier "Yi Xian"(or "Yet Sen") was introduced-on this crusier was mounted HIH Siderius 15cm and 7,5cm gun! :x :cry:

I am now thinking about buying one directly from the publisher...

So could this 57mm gun be a HIH gun?

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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by nuyt » 12 Aug 2012 11:24

Wow, that magazine sounds interesting! Hope you find it...:)
I dont think the 57mm gun is a HIH Siderius, because I dont have any proof the company made them. They were not in their catalogue, but neither were the Chinese 7,5cm naval AA guns...
Would still go for a British made but second hand naval 6 pounder...
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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by Sturm78 » 15 Aug 2012 09:25

Hi all,

I found this image on Ebay. According to photocaption Chinese guns.
Any idea ??

Sturm78
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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by YC Chen » 15 Aug 2012 11:44

Hello,
I just saw this photo and two others showing Chinese forts on ebay yesterday. To me the photo that I post below is 100% Taku forts 1900. But I'm not sure if these photos were taken in the same location so I'm not sure if the photo showing coastal guns was also taken in Taku.

I don't know very much about these old coastal guns but I think these are Krupp guns bought in 1880s or 1890s, most probably 21cm or 28cm judging from the barrel.
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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by nuyt » 15 Aug 2012 11:55

This site confirms the 57mm L40 to be a Hotchkiss:
http://www.navypedia.org/ships/china/ch ... n_ning.htm

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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by YC Chen » 19 Aug 2012 09:39

The ship in your source was "Hsien Ning"(咸宁), although its name does have the character "Ning", but it doesn't belong to the "Ning class" I mentioned.
The "Ning class" I mentioned is only an unofficial name, it included 12 much smaller gunboats: "Jiang Ning", "Hai Ning", "Fu Ning", "Sui Ning", "Wei Ning", "Yi Ning", "Chong Ning", "Su Ning", "Zheng Ning", "Chang Ning", "Tai Ning"(unfinished), "Du Ning"(unfinished, but later finished by the Japanese after they captured her hull). They are of similar design and each was armed with two 57mm guns and a few HMGs.

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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by YC Chen » 06 Sep 2012 13:11

I have just found a new clue on this mysterious 57mm gun.

Accroding to the book "Chinese weapon industry from late Qing Dynasty to the ROC period", in the year 1927 the Shanghai arsenal was working on two types of new 57mm anti-aircraft guns, one was mobile, the other type was fixed on to the ground.

However as the NRA was in desperate need of anti-aircraft guns to repress the Northerner's aircraft, the Shanghai arsenal temporarily transformed 2 57mm naval guns(could be Hotchkiss/Armstrong type) into anti-aircraft guns. Shanghai arsenal retained the original barrel, mount and recoil mechanism, but the elevating system and the gun sight were totally rebuilt in order to increas the gun's elevation from +15 to +70 degree, and the gun could take aim at aircraft with the newly designed gun sight. The original conical mount was not changed.

I guess the gun on the "Ning" class gunboats were probably a modified or "mass-production" version of the two 57mm anti-aircraft guns mentioned above. Some other photos prove that the guns on Ning class gunboats had an elevation of at least +60 degree; it is also reasonable for a gunboat built in Kiangnan shipyard to have guns built in Shanghai arsenal - they were both in Shanghai and had very close ties(they were in fact one factory in late Qing Dynasty but later split).

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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by nuyt » 06 Sep 2012 19:00

Interesting, good work!

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H.I.H naval guns

Post by YC Chen » 22 Sep 2012 08:03

Hello nuyt(and all others who are interested),
I finally got a copy of the issue of "Modern Ships" which has the article on the Chinese light crusier "Yet Sen"("Yi Xian"). There are some very interesting photos as shown below.
Accroding to the article the 7.5cm AA guns on the ship were L/55 HIH guns, capable of rising to 90 degree, and were also used by German destroyer "van Ghent", "van Galen" and so on. I don't know much on warships so I'm not sure if this is correct.
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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by nuyt » 22 Sep 2012 12:55

Dear Friend, thank you so much! Finally some good pictures of the Chinese HIH naval guns!
Number 2 and 4 pics show the HIH Siderius 15cm naval gun, also used (3 pieces) by the Dutch Navy on the Johan Maurits van Nassau gunboat. One gun remains at the Den Helder Naval base. This weapon is closely related (through some breech features) to the Rheinmetall 15cm naval guns of the 1920s and 30s.
Some pics of the gun can be found here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... More+shots

Now the 7,5cm naval AA gun. It is not the HIH 7,5cm L55 as used by the Dutch Navy. That was a more modern gun, used on Dutch destroyers (not German!) of the Banckert and Van Nes class as well as some minelayers:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... +Navy+guns

I think there was a now defunct or moved ROC website dealing with naval history that had these guns listed as L40, see
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... Naval+guns.

With this L40 calibre HIH merely continued a line of Krupp 75mm L40 naval gun. Actually, I am not sure if this is an original weapon or an upgraded or bored out existing one, like the Hotchkiss. Meanwhile I have acquired some factory pictures of the HIH 75 mm L40, not for publication. I will pm you one. I am convinced the Chinese naval AA is this 75mm L40. I am speculating that this was a completely rebuilt Vickers (Elswick) 76mm/3 inch/12 pounder naval gun, retaning at least the outer barrel. This was a far more complicated operation that converting the 57mm naval guns, that could be done in any naval arsenal. Any thoughts welcome!

Kind regards,
Nuyt

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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by YC Chen » 30 Sep 2012 13:51

Hello,
Sorry for my late reply, I have been very busy this week. Please note that I have send you an e-mail and enclosed a little info on HIH 7.5cm infantry guns in Chinese service.
So do you think this gun is an adapted Vickers 12pound QF naval gun(which, AFAIK, was also borrowed for AA use during WW1) or a Krupp-type gun? Did Krupp made a similar 7.5cm L/40 guns during WW1 or before?

The following is extracted from a very informative memoir of Li Shijia(李世甲), the director of Chinese naval weapons in 1930s:
"At the beginning of the building of light Crusier "Yi Xian", Chen Shaokuan(Chinese navy commander) ordered Lin Xianyi(he had before studied in Germany) to purchase weapons through German merchants in Shanghai. Admiral Zheng Yaoshu and Chen Zhaojun was sent to Germany to surpervise the manufacturing of the guns. However at that time Germany was banned from making guns and the German firms secretly contiuned their work in the Netherlands, so the officers had to go there to do their job. This time China bought one 15cm naval gun and six 8cm naval AA guns("Yi Xian" only got four AA guns and I haven't found out where the other two went), along with adequate ammunition. They were shipped to Shanghai in 1930 and equipped the crusier "Yi Xian". "

I really want to know if you have got any information of HIH's selling of 7.5cm L/13 infantry guns to China. Although the photos of this gun is abundant, this is in fact one of the most mysterious guns in service with Nationalist troops before WW2 regarding its origin: not a single word has been found in Chinese documents describing when and how many of this guns were bought.

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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by nuyt » 30 Sep 2012 13:58

Thanks for that info, now we finally know how much were bought!

As for the remaining 75mm guns, I found these possiblities:

- Yung Sui (to be armed with a single 15cm (= the HIH on the Yat Sen?) but instead with 2 single 12cm and 3 single 75mm AA (approx 1929)

- Ming Chuen: 1 single 12cm and 1 single 10,5cm, 1930 (these are specifically marked QF so probably British)

- Ming Sen: 1 single 12cm one 10,5cm, one 75mm AA, 1931

- Wei Sheng and Tei Sheng seplane carriers: 1 single 12cm, one single 75mm AA, each fitted 1929-30.

-Tze Chiang and Ta Tung: two 12cm each and 1 75mm each, modernised 1930-31

- Kan Lu survey ship: one single 75mm, conv 1930

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Re: Need ID Chinese artillery

Post by nuyt » 30 Sep 2012 14:01

I am not sure still about the origins of the naval 75mm L40.
And I still have no news about the 7,5cm L13 Inf howitzers...
There is pictoral evidence they were produced or assembled at the Piet Smit Shipyard in Rotterdam, the faciltiy used by the HIH.

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