Need ID Chinese artillery

[YC Chen]

Hello,
It is very interesting that you said Yung Sui was intended to be armed with a single 15cm gun. Where did you got this information?

The story told in Chinese sources goes that Yung Sui's design had undergone a major change before its building started, because the original design was found to be beyond China's shipbuilding ability at that time(don't forget at that time the Nationalists had just beaten the Northern warlords, and Chiang Kai-shek was still fighting bitterly against Feng Yuxiang). Perhaps the single 15cm was Yung Sui's armament in the original design?

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

I found this image on Ebay.
According to photocaption Chinese 150mm mortars in workshop, summer 1944.

Have somebody any information about this mortar? Model ??

Thanks in advance. Sturm78

[YC Chen]

Hello,
These mortars are Chinese 15cm mortar Type 29(that is, it appeared in 1940). Type 29 mortar was a further developed type of the various 15cm mortar designs from warlord Era. It has three varieties with different barrel lengths but it is virtually impossible to tell them apart in photos. It was gradually replaced by the very powerful and modern Type 331 12cm mortar since 1944 but I believe some still remained in service in late 1940s.

P.S. Clear photos of Type 29 mortars are very rare so thank you very much for posting this.

[karlik]

http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/image ... 0150MM.jpg

More 150 mm unknown chinese mortar

[Sturm78]

Thank you very much for your help, YC Chen.

Do you have any image of Type 331 12cm mortar?

Regards Sturm78

[YC Chen]

http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/image ... 0150MM.jpg

More 150 mm unknown chinese mortar

The mortar in this photo(taken in Chinese Military Museum in Beijing) shows a 15cm mortar designed and built by Chinese communists in their arsenals in Shanxi from 1947 onwards. Its barrel was made from axles of railway wagons. It is quite similar to Type 29 and other earlier 150mm mortars but has quite a few differences in details, and adaptations were made so that the whole gun and ammunition, spare parts etc could be carried on the back of one horse(instead of in a cart like earlier 150mm mortars) thus improved mobility. A similar product is a 120mm mortar showing in the picture below.

Type 331 is a very advanced design and has much longer range than all those Nationalist&Communist 150mm mortars. I have some photos but I need time to dig them out.

[YC Chen]

A photo of brand-new Type 331 12cm mortars just came out of the factory .

There is also a surviving example of Type 331 in the military museum in Beijing. One source said that Type 331 were still being supplied to (communist) Chinese army after 1949, and even appeared on the battle field of Korean War, however I haven't found any other Chinese sources to prove it. Did the American(or other countries') forces ever captured it in Korea?

[Carl Schwamberger]

I dont remember any photos that look like those, or refrences to a "Type 331". Which does not mean the 12cm mortars captured by the US Army were not type 331. Generally the published histories in the US are weak on the artillery of other nations.

[karlik]

Hi!
http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/42/1081046.html
Possible other images of Type 331?
I would like to know more about mortar Type 331, characteristics, history of creation, combat use.
And one more question, Type 331 was developed in China, or he was a foreign prototype?
Best regards!

[YC Chen]

Hi!
http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/42/1081046.html
Possible other images of Type 331?
I would like to know more about mortar Type 331, characteristics, history of creation, combat use.
And one more question, Type 331 was developed in China, or he was a foreign prototype?
Best regards!

Wow, I think this mortar IS a Type 331!!
Unfortunately I'm away from my museum photos at present. However I managed to find a small photo from the website of Chinese Military Museum showing their Type 331(see below, their gun is on display in firing position and has lost its wheels and carriage, but the towing eye on the muzzle is still complete) and I also compared the gun in your photo with the Type 331 photo in my early 1950s artillery manual, and I think they are the same.
It seems that this mortar is on display in a Russian museum, where is it? And how did the Russians acquired it? I'm very interested!
I have some info on the characteristics and history of creation of this mortar and maybe I can post them this weekend. Type 331 is developed by Chinese (Nationalist) engineers in 1944 and was the most powerful Chinese mortar during WW2. It is said that its design was based on French Brandt 120mm mortar, but I don't know very much about French mortars so I can't verify this.

[karlik]

It seems that this mortar is on display in a Russian museum, where is it? And how did the Russians acquired it? I'm very interested!

Hi!
Is not russian museum, it is Military museum in Astana capital of Kazakhstan. As I understand it in this museum collected very many soviet pilot guns. Possible the mortar was referred to the study in the years 1940-1950 from China to the USSR.

[YC Chen]

Hello,
finally I manage to piece together a fairly complete chart of characteristics of Type 331 mortar:
caliber: 120.45mm
angle of fire: +25~+85 degree
size of the base plate: 750 x 550mm
barrel length: 1500mm
barrel weight: 78.5kg
weight of legs: 70.5kg
wieght of base plate: 62.5kg
total weight: 212.7kg(firing position)/313kg(travelling position with carriage)
muzzle velocity: 40.7m/s with primer, 256m/s with six increments
Max. range: 4925km with original Chinese mortar bomb, about 4600km with Japanese 120mm bomb
way of transportation: towed by automobiles, towed by one horse or five men, carried by 7 men or 4 horse
sighting equipment: Miao-2(瞄-2) made in Kunming
About the carriage:
width of the track: 1080mm
diameter of the wheel: 800mm
width of the wheel: 60mm
weight of the carriage: 71.5kg

Source:
"Technical Characteristics of Weapons Currently in Service with Chinese Army"(我国陆军现用各种武器诸元手册), published in 1947 by Nationalist army
"Comprehensive Manual of Heavy Equipment"(重兵器综合手册), published in 1950 by Chinese Communist 3rd Field Army

[karlik]

Thank you!

[stulev]

Max. range: 4925km with original Chinese mortar bomb, about 4600km with Japanese 120mm bomb

is that correct 4935 kilometers is a long way(over 2000 miles) - i think it should be meters

[YC Chen]

Max. range: 4925km with original Chinese mortar bomb, about 4600km with Japanese 120mm bomb

is that correct 4935 kilometers is a long way(over 2000 miles) - i think it should be meters

Yes it should be meters... a slip of the key

P.S. was this range very impressive by late war standard? I remember German 12cm mortar can reach the range of 6km. Maybe this 5km range was at least better than its Japanese counterpart?