Strength of 19th Army at Shanghai, 1931

[Jerry Asher]

Sorry to intrude, but does anyone feel they have a reliable estimate of its strength? Often I see that it's over 30,000 men in its component 60th, 61st and 78th Divisions. Just seems very high for Divisions that have been out of Guangdong and Fujian Provinces for months, participated in Jiangxi sweeps and then moved to Nanjing/Shanghai. Perhaps a good order of battle? I have Jordan's "China's Trial by Fire" but must have missed the right paragraph. (Saw some figures for 87th and 88th Division indicating they fielded 13,000 between them).

[YC Chen]

I have some friends who have just done a research on the 1932 Shanghai Incident(don't forget this year is the 80th anniversary). I'll ask them to find if they can give you some reliable figures.

[L1E1]

They are the 19th Route Army (第十九路軍) not the 19th Army (第十九軍).

You have to bear in mind, at that time Chiang Kai Shek was stepped down. The Nanking Central Government was control by the Cantonese party and therefore they asked the Cantonese troops to protect themselves in Nanking-Shanghai area from the attack by the warlord..............Chinag Kai Shek.

Herebelow is the data from the 19th Route Army after the Incident :
Total 22,500 at the begining of the Incident. Death 2,449 (117 officers). Injured 6,343 (401 officers).

据十九路军参谋部公布的统计, “一·二八”抗战之始，十九路军是2.25万人. 十九路军阵亡官兵计2449人(其中军官117人)，阵伤官兵6343人(其中军官401人)。伤亡合计8792人。

[zoboe]

Sorry to intrude, but does anyone feel they have a reliable estimate of its strength? Often I see that it's over 30,000 men in its component 60th, 61st and 78th Divisions. Just seems very high for Divisions that have been out of Guangdong and Fujian Provinces for months, participated in Jiangxi sweeps and then moved to Nanjing/Shanghai. Perhaps a good order of battle? I have Jordan's "China's Trial by Fire" but must have missed the right paragraph. (Saw some figures for 87th and 88th Division indicating they fielded 13,000 between them).

Hi Jerry, yes this rough estimate was widely quoted. I think there may be two possibilities -
(a) the habitual inclination of overstating and simplification, e.g. 22.5 thousand (over 20 thousand) be called 30 thousand instead, the latter integer easier for propaganda, isn't it?
(b) some other troops in Shanghai under the battle command of the 19th Route Army were counted in, e.g. (i) the Military Police of the Central Government (intended to displace the 19th Route Army before the war to avoid stimulating the Japanese), (ii) local civil police (yes they joined the battle), (iii) one armored train stationed in Shanghai (originally reponsible to protect the railway between Shanghai and Nanjing), and/or (iv) local para-military guard troops and/or civil-volunteer troops on the front line.

[zoboe]

As for the 19th Route Army itself, there were quite some new boys after Jiangxi sweeps.

A public interview with the then-commander of the 6th Regiment, the 156th Brigade of the 78th Division, started with such introduction,"My regiment was established less than two months ago (till the end of January 1932), and most of the troops were raw. So after we moved from Jiangxi to Kunshan and Taicang (both neighboring counties of Shanghai then), we were in intensified training. Since January 6, my regiment started to move from Taicang to succeed the defence of Zhabei (the Shanghai district where the war broke out, previously defended by the Tax Police of the Ministry of Finance). On January 20, I got the order of commanding the Military Police Company in Zhabei, a Railway Gun Platoon (i.e. the armored train), the 3rd and the 6th Civil Police Squadron, and those guard troops, to bear the full responsibility of Zhabei's security. "

Please note that, it was exactly this regiment and the affiliated troops mentioned above that defeated the initial brunt of Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (with local Japanese volunteers) on January 28-29.

By the way, the 87th and 88th Division belonged to the 5th Army Corps then. The 5th Army Corps was the "Capital Guard" of the Central Government, and did not join in the Jiangxi sweeps. Thus no wonder these divisions were in full power.

[Jerry Asher]

Many thanks, YC Chen, L1E1 and Zoboe, you have clarified a great deal and raised some new points.
I mean no disrepect in dropping route from 19th Army. I am ignorant however of its function. In English it doesn't denote anything. If it is important I will honor that. I'm not sure how to describe these translation issues. For instance Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) is very clumsy, Special itself is a temporary term: At Shanghai Jan-Feb 1932 SNLF Bn 4 was Sasebo Bn 3 when it left Sasebo Jan 28th or 29. Also, Sentai 3, (Naka, Abekumo and Yura) is often cited in English as CruDiv3, although I like translated Force 3 as I think it captures the tone of the people involved.

Zoboe: Date of January 20th, very interesting--clearly a great deal of reorganization is going on.

L1E1: May I put forth that I think Jiang is much more involved. ie--meetings at Hangzhou Jan 13-20th, meeting with CO of 2nd National Guard Division on January 20th, meeting with 2nd NG at Suzhou on Jan 22nd; meeting with 62 members Jan 26th to handle foreign policy issues arising from Shanghai and perhaps even a tie in to Zoboe's recitation of 156 Brigade taking over at Zhabei revenue units.

I will be posting a question re IJN ships and movements I would appreciate assistance with.

Many thanks

[L1E1]

A) Route Army
Route Army (路軍) will normally consist of more than one army (軍). However there is always an exception. The 19th Route Army in fact consists of 1) the headquarter of the 19th Route Army (Commander : Chiang Kuang-Nai 蒋光鼐) and 2) the 19th Army (Commander : Choi Ting kai 蔡廷锴) (the 60 th , the 61 st and the 78 th divisions).

B) The important role of the headquarter of the 19th Route Army
Chiang Kei Shek was forced to step down after the Manchurian Incident on Sep 18, 1931. However he knew he would return to the chair soon. It is because he did not leave a single dollar to the Cantonese party and most importantly, the army was still under his control.

As what you said Chiang Kei Shek got involved in many meetings. During these meetings, he never changed his mind that “it's not the correct timing to fight against the Jap”. He personally requested The headquarter of the 19th Route Army not to fight. In additional, he gave an order to Ho Ying-chin (何應欽) , the Minister of Military Administration Department of the Nationalist government, to order the 19th Route Army to retreat from Shanghai.

The headquarter of the 19th Route Army simply ignored this order (not because of they knew why the central government owed them 8-month salary .......Chiang Kei Shek's magic to contorl the central government and the army). Few days later, the Incident occurred.

[zoboe]

A) Route Army
Route Army (路軍) will normally consist of more than one army (軍).

Sir I might dare say "more than one army corps", tricky difference between the word in Chinese and in English

[zoboe]

I mean no disrepect in dropping route from 19th Army. I am ignorant however of its function. In English it doesn't denote anything. If it is important I will honor that. I'm not sure how to describe these translation issues. For instance Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) is very clumsy,

meeting with 62 members Jan 26th to handle foreign policy issues arising from Shanghai and perhaps even a tie in to Zoboe's recitation of 156 Brigade taking over at Zhabei revenue units.

You are welcome Jerry, as there are often quite some historical details covered by the hardship of a different language.

To my understanding, the expression of "Route Army" feels closer to ancient use, and it was adopted in 1920s' North Expedition era. One "route" refers to one direction of attack, a bit similar to WW2 Soviet "Front". Later, "Route Army" usually refers to troops not directly under Chiang's control, i.e. not "Central Army". For instance, the semi-independent Guangdong local troop was the 4th Route Army, and the CCP force in northwest China was given the later-famous name of "8th Route Army" in 1937.

Yes such translation often looks strange and clumsy to native English user. As for the Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF), Japanese chose their own translation. I only know that SNLF refers to professional land-fight troops of the IJN, distinct from those active sailor-based marine troops.
I think the SNLF is the counterpart of USMC, and similar in many ways, including garrison missions abroad, and using relatively backward weapons from the Army or things not chosen by the Army

Last, 156 Brigade taking over the command of other units in Zhabei, was irrelevant to Chiang's meetings those days, but solely out of the order of 19th Route Army itself. In fact, Ho Yingchin (as an executer of Chiang's compromising wills, himself more inclined to "loving the Japanese", according to Okamura Yasuji) sent the 6th Military Policy Regiment from Nanjing to Shanghai to take over the whole Zhabei from 19th Route Army. But the 6th MP Regiment arrived on Jan.28-29, exactly catching up the war start, and they chose to accept the battle command of 19th Route Army.

[L1E1]

Like the 19th Route Army, the 4th Route Army is the Cantonese troop serving outside the Guangdong = Canton = Kwangtung area before Jun 1936. The Kwungtung local troop, you might not believe it, is the 8th Route Army 第八路军 (10 Aug, 1927 - 08 Oct 1936).

In fact, the 8th Route Army (2nd generation) 第八路军 (二代), the former CCP force, only last for 21 days ( 22 Aug 1937 - 11 Sep 1937). After 11 Sep, 1937, they are the 18 Army Group (第十八集团军).

[YC Chen]

Thanks a lot Zoboe and L1E1, I myself don't have much to add now.
For the "Route Army", it's indeed a very tricky translation. In fact it didn't always consist of "more than one army(or army crops)", the 8th Route Army (2nd generation) mentioned above only consisted of 3 divisions, if I remember correctly.

[zoboe]

Like the 19th Route Army, the 4th Route Army is the Cantonese troop serving outside the Guangdong = Canton = Kwangtung area before Jun 1936. The Kwungtung local troop, you might not believe it, is the 8th Route Army 第八路军 (10 Aug, 1927 - 08 Oct 1936).

In fact, the 8th Route Army (2nd generation) 第八路军 (二代), the former CCP force, only last for 21 days ( 22 Aug 1937 - 11 Sep 1937). After 11 Sep, 1937, they are the 18 Army Group (第十八集团军).

Sincere thanks again sir, very good knowledge about the Cantonese troops!