Sino-Japanese Tank Battles

[keith A]

Does anyone know of any encounters between Japanese and Chines Tanks? I believe that until late in the war the Chinese only had light tanks, but in Burma they had Shermans and Stuarts.

regards


Keith

[Jerry Asher]

Keith see postings under 200th Division. Chinese tank units were present and in limited numbers employed in Shanghai in mid August 1937. I'm not sure I'd apply the term tank battle to any event of the conflict. I'm still interested in tracking down the names of the two British flagged ships that picked up the 82 Russian tanks in Sevastopol in 1937 and brought them to Hong Kong or Haiphong. The ships were hired, chartered contracted for, chosen by Chinese officials not Russian.

[Akira Takizawa]

There was no encounters between Japanese and Chinese tanks.

Taki

[YC Chen]

Keith see postings under 200th Division. Chinese tank units were present and in limited numbers employed in Shanghai in mid August 1937. I'm not sure I'd apply the term tank battle to any event of the conflict. I'm still interested in tracking down the names of the two British flagged ships that picked up the 82 Russian tanks in Sevastopol in 1937 and brought them to Hong Kong or Haiphong. The ships were hired, chartered contracted for, chosen by Chinese officials not Russian.

Wow, this is the exact number of those T-26s that were imported by China, this must be the delivery of these tanks! It seems that the details of shipping these tanks are rarely mentioned in Chinese sources. Can you tell me more about this or where can I read about it?

BTW, Taki is right in saying that there wasn't a tank-vs-tank battle between China and Japan during WW2. But I think there are encounters between Chinese and Japanese armored trains.

[keith A]

Thanks chaps, there is an account of the 1st Provisional Tanks destroying a Japanese medium and 2 light tanks in Burma but I presume these are US-crewed M4a4?

As for the 200th Division thread - wow! I am still reading it. Massive amount of detail. I believe than the 38th Division's commander Sung Li-Jen led a regiment of this division at the Kunlun Pass battle. Does anyone know which this was?....and which unit he commanded in the battle od Shanghai in 1937?

regards

Keith

[Edward Chen]

Thanks chaps, there is an account of the 1st Provisional Tanks destroying a Japanese medium and 2 light tanks in Burma but I presume these are US-crewed M4a4?

Please cite the source, because I (and just about everyone interested in this theater of operations) would love to read about this.

As for the 200th Division thread - wow! I am still reading it. Massive amount of detail. I believe than the 38th Division's commander Sung Li-Jen led a regiment of this division at the Kunlun Pass battle. Does anyone know which this was?....and which unit he commanded in the battle od Shanghai in 1937?

Briefly (as I am still putting together a detailed description of General Sun Li-jen from more credible Chinese language sources):

1. Sun Li-jen was never involved with the Nationalist Revolutionary Army's [NRA=Chinese Nationalist Army] 200th Division or 5th Corps.
Despite being an NRA officer, his initial commands were of combat units of the Ministry of Finance Taxation Police.

2. Sun fought and was severely wounded on October 30, 1937 in the Battle of Shanghai, during which he led, first the Ministry of Finance Taxation Police 4th Regiment, and then promoted to lead the Ministry of Finance Taxation Police 2nd Detachment (comprising the 4th, 5th and 6th Regiments) when he was wounded in action.

3. After recovering from his wounds, Sun continued to train and rebuild Ministry of Finance combat units in the interior, and thus never fought in the Fall 1939 Battle of Kunlunguan. In fact, his famous New 38th Division was not officially activated until February 27, 1942, raised from the Taxation Police 2nd, 3rd and 4th Regiments, and was then sent straight to Burma.

Hope this helps.

[keith A]

Thanks, Edward

Your information certainly seems to highlight the lack of reliable information about the Chinese army in western sources. As for the source of my tank battle it comes from an internet article on the 1st Provisional Tank Group.


"On January 27, 1945 the American Tank Platoon and Reconnaissance Platoon led the attack on Japanese forces near the village of Mu-se-Mong Yu, Burma. The Japanese roadblock was destroyed and the Stilwell Road was again reopened for convoys. Two days later, the American units along with the Chinese 3rd Tank Company (1st Tank Battalion) met the Japanese, this time near the town of Kutkai. For only the second time in theater, the tankers engaged Japanese armor. This time, unlike at Hwelon Hka, the Japanese came away bloodied. Two Japanese light tanks and on Japanese medium tank were destroyed. Four Americans were wounded and one light tank was damaged."

best regards


Keith

[LWD]

.... I'm still interested in tracking down the names of the two British flagged ships that picked up the 82 Russian tanks in Sevastopol in 1937 and brought them to Hong Kong or Haiphong. The ships were hired, chartered contracted for, chosen by Chinese officials not Russian.

You might try looking at:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/Rising.htm
The sources page might give some clues if it isn't mentioned in the text (and I don't remember seeing it).
Asking the question over on Tully's port might yield the info as well.

[Jerry Asher]

YC my source was an English language translation of a Russian article on assistance provided to China. The bulk of the article dealt with aircraft, but included were a few sentences relating to army needs. The two most interesting aspects to me were the inclusion of an anti aircraft unit complete with searchlights and the reference to China's preference for the assistance to come by sea. Some speculation--bulk of anti aircraft effort would have been for Wuhan. Ships most likely would have been from the pre war British China trade--Dick and Kentwell's books on pre war shipping would provide a reasonable check list--but it would take considerable time to develop tabular record of movement. Sooner or later someone will tackle the post July 1937 arms trade to China.

[zoboe]

YC my source was an English language translation of a Russian article on assistance provided to China.

Hello Jerry, could you please share the article title? I could read some Russian .

As for the tank battle in Burma, you may ask Taki about the specific Japanese troop at that time and location. To my knowledge, only the 2nd Reconnaissance Regiment搜索第二連隊 which had Type 97 "light armored car (tankette)" was in the way of Chinese American tanks.

However, in the official combat history and armored troop memoirs of the Chinese side, never (a) Japanese medium tank encountered and destroyed, (b) fire fight with Japanese light tank.

And yet photos only show Type 97 tankettes abandoned, instead of destroyed through combat.

[Akira Takizawa]

As for the tank battle in Burma, you may ask Taki about the specific Japanese troop at that time and location. To my knowledge, only the 2nd Reconnaissance Regiment搜索第二連隊 which had Type 97 "light armored car (tankette)" was in the way of Chinese American tanks.

2nd Recon Regiment had Type 95 Light Tanks. But, they moved to Indochina and did not fight in Burma.
There were also Type 89 Medium Tanks from the Special Tank Unit of the 2nd Recon Regiment in Burma. But, as far as I know, they did not fight with enemy tanks. See "Type 89 Medium Tank in Burma" at below link.
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/newfolder/gallery.htm

Type 97 Tankettes of 56th Recon Regiment fought with M5 Light Tanks of Chinese-American forces at Hsenwi in Feb. 1945. Type 97 Tankettes immobilized one M5, but one Type 97 Tankette was destroyed. It is neither Japanese tank nor Chinese tank, though.

Taki

[keith A]

Interesting... is this the same combat as I read about? In both cases a 1PTG tank is damaged, although it seems that perhaps only one tankette was actually destroyed. I am assuming the tankettes abandoned were captured so it seems odd that they were misidentified?

regards
Keith

[Akira Takizawa]

Interesting... is this the same combat as I read about?

The combat I mentioned was on Feb. 13th and the place was between Kutkai and Hsenwi. So, it does not agree with the combat you read. But, I have never heard that there was any other tank combat. So, the story you read would be on the same combat.

Taki

[Jerry Asher]

Hi Zoboe: My source was one of the translations by George M. Mellinger of Anatolii Demin's Soviet Fighters in the Sky of China or Soviet Bombers (six or eight parts) article in Aviatsiia i Kosmonavtika 2.2001. Regarding Soviet Bombers in China see Anatolli Demin and Vladimir Kotl'nikov in Aviatsiia i Kosmonavtika 3, 1999. My interest continues to be ships and shipping including inland waters and how such movement fits into specific campaigns and overall strategy. I'm getting close, at least in my own mind, of being able to give a coherent narration.

[zoboe]

Oh great, thank you Jerry. Previously I have seen the result translated by some Chinese, but I could not feel sure on whether it was true or just web fiction again. Now you solved the mystery! If you feel interested in Soviet airplanes (and "volunteer" pilots) in China, there is quite much fun in excavation. The American book "Ding Hao" also mentioned some interesting details