Chinese Naval Forces at Battle of Wuhan (Jun-Oct 1938)

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Robert24
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Chinese Naval Forces at Battle of Wuhan (Jun-Oct 1938)

Post by Robert24 » 20 Oct 2013 18:25

Good morning,

I am working on a Battle of Wuhan OOB update and the Chinese naval forces are a focus for now.
Below are some findings.
I would enjoy any comments or critiques.

Between Mantang and Hukou June 1938.
-9 Gunboats: Yi Sheng, Hsien Ning, Chung Ning, Sui Ning, Chung Shen (Capt Sa Shih Chun), Chu Tung, Yung Sheng, Chu Chien, Hu Fu(?)
-Unknown number of “high-speed” boats and PT-boats, among them No. 93, Shin No. 223, Yueh No. 253, Wen No. 42, Wen No. 88. These boats were assigned to the Chinese Navy GHQ after the Torpedo School was deactivated on July 9, 1938.
-Minelayer(s): One known; Huying

After July 1938 additional craft appear in references at Hankow to await possible to evacuate National Military Council.
-Gunboats: Chu Kuan, Yung Chi, Chiang yuan.
-Unknown types: Chung Shan, Chaing Chen, Min Sheng.

In PoYang Lake.
-9 Gun boats: Yin Ning (Capt Yen Chuan Ching), Hai Ning, and seven others.

Naval Gun units at Yangtze Fortress Matang, Hukou, Tienchia and Kotien; details not included here.

Sources:

Preston, Anthony, Jane’s Fighting Ships of World War Two, 2001 edition, The Random House Group Ltd, London, United Kingdom

Hsu Long-hsuen and Chang Ming-kai, History of The Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) 2nd Ed., 1971. Translated by Wen Ha-hsiung, Chung Wu Publishing; 33, 140th Lane, Tung-hwa Street, Taipei, Taiwan Republic of China

World Naval Ships, accessed at http://www.worldnavalships.com/chinese_navy.htm on 10/20/2013

Jerry Asher
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Posts: 719
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 02:48
Location: California

Re: Chinese Naval Forces at Battle of Wuhan (Jun-Oct 1938)

Post by Jerry Asher » 21 Oct 2013 00:00

Hi Robert: My stuff isn't organized as a conventional OOB but more chronological based on encounters/reportage. Anyway try this:
Hsienning damaged on June 24 by J Ac. then repaired.
Yining lost to J AC
Weining lost to J AC
Chongning heavily damaged by J AC sinks five days later (I Think damage is inflicted on 29 June.
Changning sunk July 1 by J AC as is the Hsienning.
Chungning sunk July 2nd @ Houkou southeast bank of Yangzi--just eat of entrance to Poyang Lake My notes record six of the guns taken from scuttled warships were part of the river defense. (No further details).
MTB 93, 223, 253 active July 14th--16th. (MTB designation is mine, but have never found numbers duplicated in Chinese accounts although prefixes differ.)
Suining sunk by J AC July 13th
Haining sunk by J AC July 14th
Minsheng between July 20 and 27
Jiangzhen " " " " " "
Jiangyuan my sequencing breaks down heavily damaged Oct 21st "
Yongji " " " " " ' " "
Chiang Sing sunk J AC Aug 2 (this ship is a custom cruiser not a ship of the Chinese Navy).
At Gedian I list 10 75mm guns (Robert--looking at your question and my answer I would like to check if Kotien and Gedian are in fact the same place---a question of transliteration/translation?
Zhongshan Oct 24th J AC
Yisheng, Yongshen and Jensheng would have been present at one time or another.
Hope this helps.

Jerry Asher
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 02:48
Location: California

Re: Chinese Naval Forces at Battle of Wuhan (Jun-Oct 1938)

Post by Jerry Asher » 21 Oct 2013 00:00

Hi Robert: My stuff isn't organized as a conventional OOB but more chronological based on encounters/reportage. Anyway try this:
Hsienning damaged on June 24 by J Ac. then repaired.
Yining lost to J AC
Weining lost to J AC
Chongning heavily damaged by J AC sinks five days later (I Think damage is inflicted on 29 June.
Changning sunk July 1 by J AC as is the Hsienning.
Chungning sunk July 2nd @ Houkou southeast bank of Yangzi--just eat of entrance to Poyang Lake My notes record six of the guns taken from scuttled warships were part of the river defense. (No further details).
MTB 93, 223, 253 active July 14th--16th. (MTB designation is mine, but have never found numbers duplicated in Chinese accounts although prefixes differ.)
Suining sunk by J AC July 13th
Haining sunk by J AC July 14th
Minsheng between July 20 and 27
Jiangzhen " " " " " "
Jiangyuan my sequencing breaks down heavily damaged Oct 21st "
Yongji " " " " " ' " "
Chiang Sing sunk J AC Aug 2 (this ship is a custom cruiser not a ship of the Chinese Navy).
At Gedian I list 10 75mm guns (Robert--looking at your question and my answer I would like to check if Kotien and Gedian are in fact the same place---a question of transliteration/translation?
Zhongshan Oct 24th J AC
Yisheng, Yongshen and Jensheng would have been present at one time or another.
Hope this helps.

Jerry Asher
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 02:48
Location: California

Re: Chinese Naval Forces at Battle of Wuhan (Jun-Oct 1938)

Post by Jerry Asher » 21 Oct 2013 00:00

Hi Robert: My stuff isn't organized as a conventional OOB but more chronological based on encounters/reportage. Anyway try this:
Hsienning damaged on June 24 by J Ac. then repaired.
Yining lost to J AC
Weining lost to J AC
Chongning heavily damaged by J AC sinks five days later (I Think damage is inflicted on 29 June.
Changning sunk July 1 by J AC as is the Hsienning.
Chungning sunk July 2nd @ Houkou southeast bank of Yangzi--just eat of entrance to Poyang Lake My notes record six of the guns taken from scuttled warships were part of the river defense. (No further details).
MTB 93, 223, 253 active July 14th--16th. (MTB designation is mine, but have never found numbers duplicated in Chinese accounts although prefixes differ.)
Suining sunk by J AC July 13th
Haining sunk by J AC July 14th
Minsheng between July 20 and 27
Jiangzhen " " " " " "
Jiangyuan my sequencing breaks down heavily damaged Oct 21st "
Yongji " " " " " ' " "
Chiang Sing sunk J AC Aug 2 (this ship is a custom cruiser not a ship of the Chinese Navy).
At Gedian I list 10 75mm guns (Robert--looking at your question and my answer I would like to check if Kotien and Gedian are in fact the same place---a question of transliteration/translation?
Zhongshan Oct 24th J AC
Yisheng, Yongshen and Jensheng would have been present at one time or another.
Hope this helps.

Jerry Asher
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 02:48
Location: California

Re: Chinese Naval Forces at Battle of Wuhan (Jun-Oct 1938)

Post by Jerry Asher » 21 Oct 2013 00:00

Hi Robert: My stuff isn't organized as a conventional OOB but more chronological based on encounters/reportage. Anyway try this:
Hsienning damaged on June 24 by J Ac. then repaired.
Yining lost to J AC
Weining lost to J AC
Chongning heavily damaged by J AC sinks five days later (I Think damage is inflicted on 29 June.
Changning sunk July 1 by J AC as is the Hsienning.
Chungning sunk July 2nd @ Houkou southeast bank of Yangzi--just eat of entrance to Poyang Lake My notes record six of the guns taken from scuttled warships were part of the river defense. (No further details).
MTB 93, 223, 253 active July 14th--16th. (MTB designation is mine, but have never found numbers duplicated in Chinese accounts although prefixes differ.)
Suining sunk by J AC July 13th
Haining sunk by J AC July 14th
Minsheng between July 20 and 27
Jiangzhen " " " " " "
Jiangyuan my sequencing breaks down heavily damaged Oct 21st "
Yongji " " " " " ' " "
Chiang Sing sunk J AC Aug 2 (this ship is a custom cruiser not a ship of the Chinese Navy).
At Gedian I list 10 75mm guns (Robert--looking at your question and my answer I would like to check if Kotien and Gedian are in fact the same place---a question of transliteration/translation?
Zhongshan Oct 24th J AC
Yisheng, Yongshen and Jensheng would have been present at one time or another.
Hope this helps.

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Robert24
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: 12 Feb 2009 03:28

Re: Chinese Naval Forces at Battle of Wuhan (Jun-Oct 1938)

Post by Robert24 » 23 Oct 2013 03:40

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for sharing the information!

I would not have guessed Chiang Sing was not part of the Navy, or a patrol/gun boat.

Interesting idea that Kotien and Gedian are in fact the same place. In a source (History of The Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) on pp. 260-261 the author indicates Kotien was assaulted after Tienchiachen in mid October, so that places Kotien closer to Wuhan, to the west. The author also states that on 24 Oct the fortress was given instructions to withdrawal.

In looking this up again I saw the mention of a boat named Hu Fu, no mention of type; but that it had escaped an air attack on 24 Oct.

I have this information on the gun types at these fortresses obtained from Ah Xiang, Japanese Yangtze Campaign, Excerpts from "Restance Wars 1931-1945", accessed from http://www.republicanchina.org/Japanese ... mpaign.pdf on 10/1/13.
-Matang twelve 12-cm (4.7 inch) guns
-Hukou six 10.5-cm (4 inch) guns
-Tienchiachen sixteen 10.5-cm (4 inch) guns
-Huang ten 7.5-cm (3 inch) guns
So, with your data the ten 75mm guns at Gedian/Kotien would give us the info on a fifth fortress' artillery complement along the Yangtze during the battle.

I think the designation of MTB is great - probably says it better than PT boat.
Maybe MTB 42 and 88 are the same - I found another one, Yen No. 161.

Fun stuff, thanks for writing.

Robert

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