Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Discussions on all aspects of China, from the beginning of the First Sino-Japanese War till the end of the Chinese Civil War. Hosted by YC Chen.
Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 09 Sep 2014 05:47

I have a number of questions relating to the Hui uprising in Gansu during the 1927-1930 time period. Unless the forum staff objects, I think it makes sense to pool the discussion in one thread rather than having me start a dozen separate threads on closely related subjects.

The most comprehensive English-language books that I'm aware of with coverage on the subject are Jonathan N. Lipman's The Border World of Gansu, 1895-1935 (1981) ("Lipman 1981") and Lipman's later book Familiar Strangers: A History of Muslims in Northwest China (1997) ("Lipman 1997"). Lipman also contributed an essay ("Ethnic Violence in Modern China: Hans and Huis in Gansu, 1781-1929") to the collection Violence in China: Essays in Culture and Counterculture (1990) ("Lipman 1990"). Unfortunately, Lipman contradicts himself on certain key points (one of which is the subject of my first question). I've been trying to use the Chinese version of Wikipedia and on-line Chinese sources in conjunction with GoogleTranslate to cross-check Lipman, but that only goes so far and sometimes introduces even more confusion, so I beg the community's patience if any of these questions seem dumb.

(Disclaimer: The Chinese characters reproduced below are my best guess of the spelling of the individuals' names or words/phrases based on Chinese Wikipedia and GoogleTranslate. Corrections are appreciated.)

My first question is this: Who actually is the initial leader of the uprising?

Lipman 1981 says that "Ma Tingxiang" (馬挺象), third son of Ma Anliang (马安良), was the initial leader, and that Ma Tingxiang (馬挺象) commenced the uprising after receiving a shipment of weapons from Zhang Zuolin (张作霖) at Liangzhou (凉州) in November 1927.

Lipman 1990, however, does not reference Ma Tingxiang (馬挺象) at all in his discussion of the uprising and instead focuses entirely on "Ma Tingxian" (馬廷賢). Admittedly, Lipman 1990 does not say that Ma Tingxian (馬廷賢) was the initial leader of the uprising, nor does he state Ma Tingxian's (馬廷賢) relationship to Ma Anliang (马安良), nor does he reference the weapons shipment from Zhang Zuolin (张作霖), so it is not completely clear whether Lipman 1990 is referring to the same individual as Lipman 1981, but I suspect he is for reasons set forth below.

Lipman 1997 compounds the confusion further by identifying "Ma Tingrang" (馬廷勷), whom he also refers to as being the third son of Ma Anliang (马安良), as being the initial leader, and he again refers to the shipment of weapons from Zhang Zuolin (张作霖) in 1927.

Chinese Wikipedia, however, has no entry for any individual named "Ma Tingxiang" (馬挺象), but there is a "Ma Tingxian" (馬廷賢). I'm therefore guessing "Tingxiang" was a typographical/transliteration error on the part of Lipman 1981, which was corrected to "Tingxian" in Lipman 1990, because Chinese Wikipedia does indeed have an entry for Ma Tingxian (馬廷賢) -- http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%AC% ... 7%E8%B3%A2

While that mystery seems to be solved, Chinese Wikipedia injects a new problem. According to the link above, assuming I'm reading the translation correctly, Ma Tingxian (馬廷賢) was the fourth son of Ma Anliang (马安良), not the third. And, again assuming I'm reading the translation correctly, Ma Tingxian (馬廷賢) was not the original leader of the uprising. Rather it appears that in May 1928 (after the uprising has been underway for some months), Ma Tingxian (馬廷賢) joined the forces of Ma Zhongying (马仲英) as a deputy commander because Ma Tingxian (馬廷賢) was passed over for a promotion in what Chinese Wikipedia refers to as 马家军, which GoogleTranslate renders as "Ma's Army," which, as an aside, I'm unclear on if that is an alternative name for what is usually referred to in English as the "Ninghai Army" or if it actually represents a different organization. (There is no Chinese Wikipedia entry for the 20th Century "Ninghai Army," at least under a literal transliteration of the English name -- 宁海军.)

Chinese Wikipedia identifies Ma Tingrang (馬廷勷) as the third son of Ma Anliang (马安良), places him at Liangzhou (凉州) in approximately 1927, and appears to indicate a connection between him and Zhang Zuolin (张作霖), once more assuming that I'm reading the translation correctly -- http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%AC% ... 7%E5%8B%B7

Superficially, that would seem to suggest that Lipman 1997 is correct and Ma Tingrang (馬廷勷) is the original leader of the uprising. However, if I'm reading the translation of the Chinese Wikipedia entry for Ma Tingrang (馬廷勷) correctly, it sounds as though Ma Zhongying (马仲英) was actually responsible for starting the uprising. As a cross-check, the Chinese Wikipedia entry for the Liangzhou Incident (凉州事变), seems to confirm that Ma Zhongying (马仲英) had already begun the uprising because the translation states that "Liu Yufen [(劉郁芬)] [believed] that [Ma Tingrang (馬廷勷)] intend[ed] to take advantage of the national army and Zhongying [(仲英)] war," which implies that the uprising was already underway before Ma Tingrang (馬廷勷) became involved -- http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%87%89% ... B%E5%8F%98

Any insight into the question of who first began the uprising and when would be most appreciated.

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 20 Sep 2014 05:31

I wanted to avoid posting another question until we'd had some discussion, but as it has been ten days since my original post, I'll go ahead with my second question. According to various Chinese Wikipedia pages, Ma Zhongying's force during the Gansu Uprising was originally named 黑虎吸冯军, (transliterated as hēi hǔ xī féngjūn according to GoogleTranslate). GoogleTranslate insists on translating this name as "Black Tiger Suck Feng Army," no matter what context the name appears in. Other on-line translators give similarly unhelpful results (e.g., "black tiger drug Mr Frederick Feng army"). What would be the most accurate way of translating the name 黑虎吸冯军 into English?

User avatar
YC Chen
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 835
Joined: 29 Sep 2009 13:35
Location: Nanking

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by YC Chen » 20 Sep 2014 12:04

I have never paid much attention to this event and the online library of my university is under maintenance :( ...

However, according to the Chinese wiki you linked to, it is all about Liu Yufen(in one place wrongly typed as Liu Yufang), Feng Yuxiang's subordinate and Tupan of Gansu, want to get rid of the various indigenous Gansu warlord, including the Zhenshoushi(镇守使, can be roughly translated as defence commander) of Liangzhou, Ma Tingrang, one by one and consolidate Feng's grip over the province. Liu Yufen was successful at first when his officer Liu Zhiyuan ambushed Ma Tingrang's office with dozens of soldiers and some one hundred policemen, and forced Ma Tingrang to flee. However a few days later Ma Tingrang returned with the help of Ma Lin, the Zhenshoushi of Xining and successfully sacked the city of Liangzhou and started an extremely bloody cleansing in it.

Later Ma Tingrang was finally defeated by Guominjun generals Ji Hongchang and Sun Lianzhong. This is pretty much the story told by the Chinese wiki.

P.S. I wonder what sources did Lipman used? If his info came from some Chinese books, perhaps I can find them when the online library is back into service.

User avatar
YC Chen
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 835
Joined: 29 Sep 2009 13:35
Location: Nanking

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by YC Chen » 20 Sep 2014 12:08

Stephen_Rynerson wrote:I wanted to avoid posting another question until we'd had some discussion, but as it has been ten days since my original post, I'll go ahead with my second question. According to various Chinese Wikipedia pages, Ma Zhongying's force during the Gansu Uprising was originally named 黑虎吸冯军, (transliterated as hēi hǔ xī féngjūn according to GoogleTranslate). GoogleTranslate insists on translating this name as "Black Tiger Suck Feng Army," no matter what context the name appears in. Other on-line translators give similarly unhelpful results (e.g., "black tiger drug Mr Frederick Feng army"). What would be the most accurate way of translating the name 黑虎吸冯军 into English?
Yes the literal translation of "黑虎吸冯军" IS "Black Tiger Suck Feng Army" :lol: ... I am also confused by this name as it does not make much sense either in modern mandarin Chinese. Perhaps we need to read more contemprary accounts to decode this name, or perhaps it had some connections with the local dialect? :?

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 20 Sep 2014 19:04

YC Chen wrote:P.S. I wonder what sources did Lipman used? If his info came from some Chinese books, perhaps I can find them when the online library is back into service.
YC Chen, thank you for the kind assistance and indulging my penchant for obscure topics. For Chinese sources, Lipman 1981 overwhelmingly relies on a book by Mu Shouqi (穆收起) called Gan-Ning-Qing Shilue (干宁清实录) ("Outline History of Gansu, Ningxia, and Qinghai"), which was originally published in Lanzhou with no publisher or publication date listed, and reprinted in Taipei by Guangwen Shuju (广文淑菊) in 1970. Other Chinese sources cited by Lipman 1981 about the uprising are:

Liu Wenhai (刘文还), Xixing Jianwen Ji (西兴建文吉) ("Seen and Heard on a Westward Trip"), pg. 17, published in Shanghai by Nanjing Shuidan (南京水丹) in 1933

Tian Tongjin (田捅进), "Longshang Qunmeng Ji Majiajun Yuanliu Gaishu" (龙尚群蒙冀马家军远流盖舒) ("Details and Perspectives on the Myriad Rowdies and the Ma Family Army of Eastern Gansu"), Gansu Wenxian (甘肃文县), no. 2 (September 1973), pp. 8-10.

Sang Dangui (桑丹桂) & Chen Guodong (陈郭冬), Longde Xian Zhi (隆德冼氏), no original publication location or publisher, originally published 1931, reprinted in Taipei by Chengwen (成文) in 1976, sections 4.37b & 4.39a.

Shi Sheng (施舌嗯), "Gansu Tianshui Xian Gaikuang" (甘肃天水冼该筐) ("The Situation in Tianshui, Gansu"), Kaifa Xibei (长城开发西北), vol. 1, no. 2 (February 1934), p. 63.

Kang Jianguo (康建国), Xibei Zuijin Shinian Lai Shiliao (西北嘴紧十念赖史料) (Historical Materials on the Past Ten Years of Northwestern History), no publication location or publisher, published 1931, pp. 12-14, 26-28.

Wang Yuting (汪迂蜓), "Gansu You Fenrao Dao Anding" (甘肃您饶芬岛安定) ("Gansu From Riot to Calm"), Changgu Yuekan (长谷越看), No. 21 (May 10, 1973), pp. 63-67.

Lipman 1990 mostly relies on these same sources, but also adds Ma Peiqing (马佩青), "Wo Suozhidao di Ma Tingxian" (禾索至道二马廷) ("The Ma Tingxian I Knew"), Gansu Wenshi Ziliao Xuanji (甘肃文氏廖梓璇玑), no. 9 (1980), pp. 150-168.

Lipman 1997 further adds Fan Manyun (范曼韵), "Liu Yufen yu Hezhou Shibian" (刘迂鼢宇贺州十遍) ("Liu Yufen and the Hezhou Incident") in Gansu Wenshi Ziliao Xuanji (甘肃文氏廖梓璇玑), no. 9 (1981), pp. 110-127.

I'll note that although the issue numbers for the two different Gansu Wenshi Ziliao Xuanji (甘肃文氏廖梓璇玑) articles are the same, Lipman gives two different publication dates. I'm not sure whether the error is in the issue number or the date.

Please note that all transliterations to pinyin here are my best guess via GoogleTranslate, because Lipman 1981 uses handwritten traditional characters in the text, while Lipman 1990 and 1997 use only Latin alphabet transliterations.

GregSingh
Member
Posts: 2512
Joined: 21 Jun 2012 01:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by GregSingh » 21 Sep 2014 06:16

I don't know how reliable this source is, but according to "Who is who in China" from 1936, it was Ma Lin who defeated Ma Ting-hsiang (Ma Tingxiang), who somehow later became known as Ma Tingrang.
1936.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. It’s impossible to put down.

User avatar
YC Chen
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 835
Joined: 29 Sep 2009 13:35
Location: Nanking

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by YC Chen » 21 Sep 2014 12:05

Hello,

Thanks a lot for the sources! Although the Chinese characters that google gave you are absurd :lol: , the pinyin names are all correct and I have no difficulty making out what the correct names should be.

I'm glad to see many of them are contemprary publicans as these are difficult to get today. However, the Gansu Wenshi Ziliao Xuanji will be immediately avaliable as soon as my university's digital library is back into service(sorry don't have time to check out the Nanjing Library which has them in paper format). Also perhaps I can check out more books from the "Wenshi Ziliao Xuanji" series on this event.

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 22 Sep 2014 04:27

GregSingh wrote:I don't know how reliable this source is, but according to "Who is who in China" from 1936, it was Ma Lin who defeated Ma Ting-hsiang (Ma Tingxiang), who somehow later became known as Ma Tingrang.
1936.jpg
Thanks, GregSingh! I actually have a PDF of one of the editions of Who's Who in China, but unfortunately it's on a computer that isn't accessible to me these days. I should try to find and download another copy.

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 22 Sep 2014 04:34

YC Chen wrote:Hello,

Thanks a lot for the sources! Although the Chinese characters that google gave you are absurd :lol: , the pinyin names are all correct and I have no difficulty making out what the correct names should be.

I'm glad to see many of them are contemprary publicans as these are difficult to get today. However, the Gansu Wenshi Ziliao Xuanji will be immediately avaliable as soon as my university's digital library is back into service(sorry don't have time to check out the Nanjing Library which has them in paper format). Also perhaps I can check out more books from the "Wenshi Ziliao Xuanji" series on this event.
You're welcome, YC Chen, although I think I'm getting the better end of the deal in terms of research assistance. :wink: Thank you also for letting me know the transliterations aren't particularly accurate, I'll skip adding them in the future. Please don't feel you need to apologize about not having time to check on something for me. Any assistance is much appreciated because so little has been written in English on the subject.

User avatar
YC Chen
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 835
Joined: 29 Sep 2009 13:35
Location: Nanking

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by YC Chen » 12 Dec 2014 07:13

Hello,

Sorry this seems to be too late a reply. I have checked the Gansu Wenshi Ziliao Xuanji No.9 today, and it does contains a lot of information on Liu Yufen's activities in Gansu.

As for the particular article, "Liu Yufen yu Hezhou Shibian", it says the incident was caused by Feng Yuxiang ordering Xining and Liangzhou(Wuwei) to send 1500 cavalrymen to participate in the Northern Expedition, but was refused by Ma Qi(马麒, his post was甘边宁海护军使. Pay attention not to confuse him with his younger brother Ma Lin(马麟-introduced in the little article posted by GregSingh), who was alway friendly towards Kuominchun) and Ma Tingxiang(马廷勷, his post was凉州镇守使). Then Ma Tingxian(马廷贤, Ma Tingxiang's younger brother) suddenly informed one of the emissaries of Feng Yuxiang that Ma Lin and Ma Tingxiang had formed secret alliance with Fengtian Clique to attack Kuominchun from its back. The emissary reported it to Liu Yufen, Feng's representative in Lanzhou, and of course made Liu furious. At the same time, incidentally, Liu's chief of staff Yang Yaodong was murdered by bandits(the author didn't think the bandits were ordered by the two Ma's in their activity), Liu assumed that the bandits were doing this under the two Ma's command, and decided that he must eliminate them.

However the first Muslim general to revolt in Gansu is the famous young general Ma Zhongying(马仲英), who was Ma Qi's nephew, and soon Ma Tingxian(Yes, 马廷贤, the one who's action partly sparked the revolt). Then it tells the long story about how both sides fought. It was interesting to note that in fact Ma Qi and Ma Tingxiang was relutant to participate in the revolt at first. But Ma Tingxiang's attitude changed dramatically once he had safely left Liangzhou and has gathered some troop under his command. Then the tragedy happend - Ma Tingxiang's troop sacked Liangzhou city and masscared many of its inhabitants.

In all this is an extremely complex story and I have only translated parts of it...

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 13 Dec 2014 19:34

YC Chen, thank you very much! No need to apologize for the delay, as I have been very busy with other things for the past several weeks and any help solving this mystery is appreciated.

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 30 Jul 2015 06:40

OK, having gotten copies of several old journal articles, I'm back on a Gansu kick with a vengeance. Cross-referencing YC Chen's post above with his post in this thread, it appears that at least two, possibly three, divisions of the First Guominjun were involved in suppressing the Gansu Uprising -- the Second Division and the artillery division being the two immediately identifiable one. I draw this conclusion from Liu Yufen having been commander of the Second Division and Sun Lianzhong having been commander of the artillery division per YC Chen's post on the Guominjun order of battle. YC Chen also mentioned Ji Hongchang as being involved in suppressing the uprising. If I'm accurately reading the Baidu entry for Ji (http://baike.baidu.com/subview/46333/7476650.htm), it looks like he would have been commander of the 30th Division during that time. Is that correct? Information on any additional Guominjun divisions also involved in suppressing the uprising would be helpful as well.

Next, according to Julie Lien-Ying How's "Soviet Advisors with the Kuominchun, 1925-1926: A Documentary Study," Chinese Studies in History, Vol. 19, Nos. 1-2 (1985-86), the First Guominjun numbered approximately 50,000 men in early 1925, but it appears to have expanded considerably over the next year through absorption of part of Wu Peifu's forces, as well incorporating various minor warlords' forces and aggressive recruitment as the army relocated to the northwest. How quotes a later 1926 report from a Soviet advisor estimating the size of the First Guominjun as having increased to as much as 100,000. How contends that these later recruits were generally inferior in training and equipment to the earlier Guominjun forces.

What I am trying to determine is to what extent the various Guominjun units that were involved in suppressing the uprising consisted of, for lack of a better word, "original" Guominjun troops as compared to inferior later recruited troops. Based on numbering of the divisions, I'm guessing that the 30th Division might have been formed from later recruited troops, but any insight would be much appreciated.

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 25 Oct 2015 13:24

Another couple Gansu Uprising-related questions: I have an account of a battle that took place on January 7, 1930 outside of Minzhou between rebel forces under the command of "Ma Ing-piao" and "Ma Chuen-pao" and government forces under the command of "General Gao" (no given name provided) and "Li Sung-kuen." Can anyone tell me: (1) Whether Ma Ing-piao and Ma Chuen-pao were affiliated with Ma Zhongying's rebel group or if they were affiliated with Ma Tingxiang's rebel group? (2) What units did General Gao and Li Sung-kuen command at the time?

Also, if anyone could assist me with pinyin forms of the commanders' names, that would also be much appreciated.

oldaxis
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 05 Nov 2017 04:41
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by oldaxis » 05 Nov 2017 05:15

YC Chen wrote:
Stephen_Rynerson wrote:I wanted to avoid posting another question until we'd had some discussion, but as it has been ten days since my original post, I'll go ahead with my second question. According to various Chinese Wikipedia pages, Ma Zhongying's force during the Gansu Uprising was originally named 黑虎吸冯军, (transliterated as hēi hǔ xī féngjūn according to GoogleTranslate). GoogleTranslate insists on translating this name as "Black Tiger Suck Feng Army," no matter what context the name appears in. Other on-line translators give similarly unhelpful results (e.g., "black tiger drug Mr Frederick Feng army"). What would be the most accurate way of translating the name 黑虎吸冯军 into English?
Yes the literal translation of "黑虎吸冯军" IS "Black Tiger Suck Feng Army" :lol: ... I am also confused by this name as it does not make much sense either in modern mandarin Chinese. Perhaps we need to read more contemprary accounts to decode this name, or perhaps it had some connections with the local dialect? :?
____________________________________________________________________
This strange name of the army interested me and I had tried to conduct some research on it. A conclusion we could draw is that Ma Zhongying chose this name because he was fighting against another warload Feng Yuxiang and he tried to make his force sound powerful and daunting.

Either "Black Tiger Suck Feng Army" or "black tiger drug Mr Frederick Feng army" doesn't really make any good sense. A more accurate translation would be "The Black Tiger Army Who Destroys Feng's Power".

Not a natural and neat name for an army - neither in English or in Mandarin. Awkward usage of the character "吸". Apparently this Ma Zhongying wasn't very fluent / well-educated with Mandarin language at that time. :-)

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Re: Gansu Uprising 1927-1930

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 28 Dec 2017 07:43

oldaxis wrote:This strange name of the army interested me and I had tried to conduct some research on it. A conclusion we could draw is that Ma Zhongying chose this name because he was fighting against another warlord Feng Yuxiang and he tried to make his force sound powerful and daunting.

Either "Black Tiger Suck Feng Army" or "black tiger drug Mr Frederick Feng army" doesn't really make any good sense. A more accurate translation would be "The Black Tiger Army Who Destroys Feng's Power".

Not a natural and neat name for an army - neither in English or in Mandarin. Awkward usage of the character "吸". Apparently this Ma Zhongying wasn't very fluent / well-educated with Mandarin language at that time. :-)
Thank you very much for the added insight on the translation, oldaxis! (And sorry for not having responded sooner.) With that added insight, perhaps "Black Tiger Army that Saps Feng's Power" would be a good fit.

Return to “China at War 1895-1949”