29th Army or 29th Route Army?

Discussions on all aspects of China, from the beginning of the First Sino-Japanese War till the end of the Chinese Civil War. Hosted by YC Chen.
Post Reply
User avatar
Robert24
Member
Posts: 66
Joined: 12 Feb 2009, 04:28

29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#1

Post by Robert24 » 30 Dec 2014, 22:46

In July of 1937 the main force confronting the initial Japanese invasion was commanded by General Song Zheyuan. In some references I see his command listed as the 29th Army, but I also see it referenced as the 29th Route Army. Which is correct?

User avatar
YC Chen
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 836
Joined: 29 Sep 2009, 14:35
Location: Nanking

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#2

Post by YC Chen » 31 Dec 2014, 12:52

29th Army, the one fought in Shanghai in 1932 was the 19th Route Army.


User avatar
Robert24
Member
Posts: 66
Joined: 12 Feb 2009, 04:28

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#3

Post by Robert24 » 01 Jan 2015, 10:50

Thank you.

User avatar
The 51st Division
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: 25 Mar 2015, 06:39
Location: Beijing, China

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#4

Post by The 51st Division » 09 Apr 2015, 01:24

I know that this reply might be a bit too late, but I have to correct you that it was actually the 29th Route Army. (Route Army=路军)

First you have to understand that the term "Army" never existed in the Chinese military, so there are only rough equivalents. "路军" is a special Chinese military formation often consisting of multiple corps or a large number of divisions. Such was the case of the 29th "路军" --four infantry divisions and two independent infantry brigades as well as one cavalry division and a cavalry brigade and a "special task" brigade. So basically an army-level unit. So in this case yes you can refer to it as an "Army". But take note that this specific formation of Route Army was discarded in the early years of the war, and later replaced with "集团军" formations, which was largely also an army-level unit. This is what most people refer to as an "Army", and Chinese also translate the western term of "Army" into "集团军". So I would say that "集团军" is the common Chinese equivalent of "Army".

Now the "路军" is mostly the same as a "集团军"...but kinda different. It is an army-level unit but since most people call the "集团军" an "Army" and people have to show the difference between these two, most would choose the literal translation--"路" means "Route", and "军" means "Army".
"The nation might be powerful, yet it shall be destroyed if it seeks war; the world might be peaceful, yet it shall be doomed if it forgets war."
--The Method of the Sima, Qin Dynasty Chinese Military Classic

User avatar
Robert24
Member
Posts: 66
Joined: 12 Feb 2009, 04:28

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#5

Post by Robert24 » 09 Apr 2015, 06:17

Wow 51st Division, that is an incredible answer. And, it is not too late. Much appreciated.
-Robert

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 266
Joined: 07 Jul 2013, 06:08

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#6

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 10 Apr 2015, 06:12

Robert24, while I do not read or speak Chinese, I'll offer one additional thought on "army" versus "route army" when reading English language sources: you need to be careful to try to determine whether your source is using the "route army --> army --> division" naming convention or if the source is using the "army --> corps --> division" naming convention. A good source will make clear what they are doing (for example, William W. Whitson & Chen-Hsia Huang's The Chinese High Command: A History of Communist Military Politics, 1927-1971 has a whole paragraph in the preface to the book explaining the authors' rationale for translating the three division-sized unit known as "chun" or "jun," depending on the transliteration system used, as "corps" rather than "army"), but frequently sources will not bother to explain what naming convention they are using. The easiest ways to determine this are either to look for references to "corps" in the source (since that unit classification isn't used in the "route army --> army --> division" naming convention at all) or look for a reference to a battle involving what I think of as a "known 'route army'," such as Shanghai 1932, where the 19th Route Army played a major role. If the source refers to the defending force as the "19th Route Army," then probably all other references to a Chinese "army" in the source are indeed referring to a formation that is in between a "route army" and a "division" in organizational structure. If the source refers to the defending force as the "19th Army," then probably all other references to "army" in the source are to a formation that is above a corps in organizational structure.

That said, I think it's worth noting that many of the sources that otherwise follow the "army --> corps --> division" naming convention break their own rule when referring to certain particularly high profile units, most notably the New Fourth Army, which you never see called the "New Fourth Corps"!

User avatar
Robert24
Member
Posts: 66
Joined: 12 Feb 2009, 04:28

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#7

Post by Robert24 » 18 Apr 2015, 19:16

Stephen,
I have 'The Chinese High Command,' on by bookshelf; I'll have to look at it more closely now.
Your insight is fascinating, thank you.
-Robert

charlieroot
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 18 Jun 2015, 23:14
Location: USA

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#8

Post by charlieroot » 19 Jun 2015, 00:20

I know enough Chinese to be dangerous.

From Chinese Wikipedia, the soldiers of the unit were originally part of the Northwest Army (西北军) of Feng Yuxiang (冯玉祥) and after their defeat in 1930 by the GMD in the Central Plains War some were demobilized and some were reorganized as the 29th Route Army (第二十九路军), commanded by Song Zheyuan, the 29th Route Army, the 22nd Route Army and the 25th Route Army. These units were put under the command of Zhang Xueliang (张学良). Some time after this the unit was reorganized as the New Revolutionary Army 29th Army (国民革命军第二十九军) and participated in the Great Wall Campaign that saw the Japanese take control of the Mongolian province of Rehe in 1930-1933, and then in the Marco Polo Bridge Incident in 1937. If you look at the English Wikipedia entry for the "Defense of the Great Wall" campaign you will notice that the 29th is not called an Army but is instead referred to as a Corps. That is why it is always nice to have the Chinese because you never know how the translator will choose to translate a term. I also see the Corps term used in "History of The Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)", by Hsu Long-hsuen and Chang Ming-kai translated into English by Wen Ha-hsiung, for the 29th and the Marco Polo Bridge Incident. The English Wikipedia entry for the Marco Polo Incident is an example of the problem with Wikipedia because it refers to the unit as the 29th Route Army on one line and then just below it on the next line calls it the 29th Army. And don't forget that it was referred to as the 29th Corps in the Defense of the Great Wall entry. No consistency!

After the losses of the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, the 29th was disbanded and used to form the 1st Group Army commanded by Song Zheyuan. The 29th Army then reappears later in the south of China.

Here is the Chinese Wiki page referenced: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A5%BF ... 7%E5%86%9B

English Wikipedia articles do not always have good editors and while some of the entries are good there are also some that are not so good, particularly those for Chinese history. Some of the writers also have no idea how to use footnotes.

The historical evolution of the field organization of the modern Chinese Army has very little written about it. It is a chaotic period with frequent reorganizations, some inspired by the Japanese, the Soviets, the Germans, then by the USA and some in response to changing circumstances. You might try to look for "Warlord Politics In China 1916-1928" by Ch'i Hsi-sheng published in 1976 and "A Military History of Modern China" written by F.F. Liu and published in 1956. Warlord Politics will provide some light on the organization of the armies of the Warlord Period and Military History will discuss the influence of the Soviets and the Germans on the Nationalist Army in the run up to and during WW2. If you depend on a translation then you are always at the mercy of the translator.

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 266
Joined: 07 Jul 2013, 06:08

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#9

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 19 Jun 2015, 14:34

Nice contribution, charlieroot. Welcome to the forum!

L1E1
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 16:20

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#10

Post by L1E1 » 24 Jun 2015, 04:04

It is for sure the 29th Army. The National Revolutionary Army adopt the 宋 Sung dynasty's military system. 路 Route was used since 976. It was a military zone.

Let's take an example. California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona are 4 states in USA. They can form the 1st Route Army. The military force within the 1st Route are those field armies, say California the 1st army, Nevada the 2nd army, Utah the 3rd army and Arizona the 4th army.

When there is a chance of outbreak of war, a temporary force, the 1st Army Group 集團軍 will be formed. The 1st Army Group may consist of the 1st Army, the 2nd Army and also newly formed , the 101st to 104th Army. The newly formed the 101st to 104th Army together with the 1st Army Group will disband after the war, but the 1st Route Army will remain there.

It is very easy to find out why the communist's the Eight Route Army (the 2nd generation) only last for 21 days, but they keep on telling people they are the eight Route Army. It is because they know their new name, the 18th Group Army will be disbanded after the war.

And it is also easy to find out, in my example, the word "Army" exists in U.S. Army. Say when we talk about the whole U.S. land force, we say U.S. Army. And when we talk about the land force in California, we talk about the 1st Army. Both we use the word "Army" at the back. It is the same in Chinese. When we talk about the whole land force, we use The National Revolutionary Army. When we talk about the communist who is the sub group of the National Revolutionary Army, we talk about the Eight Route Army (the 2nd generation).

The 29th Army cannot upgrade to the 29th Route Army is because there is no military zone belongs to them.

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 266
Joined: 07 Jul 2013, 06:08

Re: 29th Army or 29th Route Army?

#11

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 28 Jun 2015, 14:08

L1E1, thank you very much for that explanation. It was good timing that you posted this, as I just happened to be reading Vasily Chuikov's Mission to China last week and he uses the term "18th Group Army," which left me confused as to whether that unit was the same as the Eighth Route Army or not.

Post Reply

Return to “China at War 1895-1949”