Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

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sarhang
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Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by sarhang » 02 Feb 2021 20:23

A book has been published in Russia dealing with role of the Amur river fleet in the 1900 events of the Boxer rebellion in Manchuria:
А.В. Кузнецов. Пароходы китайской войны. 1900 год на Амуре и Сунгари. Часть I. Июнь-июль.- М.: “Журнал РТ”. 2021

This book, the first of an intended two-part series, covers the June/July period, featuring the dramatic evacuation by water of the CER personnel from Harbin, riverine clashes on the Amur, the organization and movement of the several Russian military flotillas sent to carry supports and restore order along the Amur and Sungari.
More details at: https://sarhang.ucoz.net/1900.html

jerryasher
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by jerryasher » 04 Feb 2021 07:26

Thanks for bringing to our attention. Any idea on pricing and ordering. I'm still wrestling on events in spring of 1918 and how the Siberian intervention may have involved the steamships. Really kind of obscure event, still worth learning of and from. Again thank you.

sarhang
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by sarhang » 04 Feb 2021 09:44

Thank you, jerryasher.
Hoping to be able to help you.

OldBill
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by OldBill » 05 Feb 2021 13:30

I wish I could read Cyrillic.... If I could I'd certainly buy this book. That time period has always fascinated me.

jerryasher
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by jerryasher » 07 Feb 2021 22:25

Been looking for this article for about and year and came across it online today at Wiley Online Library, it covers a later time period, but is in English the most solid narrative I have seen, well done Yuexian Rachel Lin; the article is "White Water, Red Tide: Sino-Russian conflict on the Amur 1917-1920.

OldBill
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by OldBill » 08 Feb 2021 16:01

Thanks for this Jerry. I'll be having a look at it tonight.

sarhang
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by sarhang » 08 Feb 2021 19:35

jerryasher wrote:
07 Feb 2021 22:25
Yuexian Rachel Lin; the article is "White Water, Red Tide: Sino-Russian conflict on the Amur 1917-1920.
Thank you jerryasher, a good reason to take my 2015 book from the shelf ))
So far have only read the first pages of the article.
Well, it is worth pointing out that Chinese steamers did actively ply the Amur in the pre-1917 years, under the Russian flag.
And it seems that the author adheres to the venerable tradion of referring to the 1900 Blagoveschensk massacre (at least twice in the article) without ever mentioning that what had prompted it was the artillery shelling of Blagoveschensk by the Chinese (shelling streets, houses and civilians).

jerryasher
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by jerryasher » 09 Feb 2021 00:50

Sarhang, hope you had chance to finish article---she mentions by name two steamboats, the Qing Lan and the Nan Xian. Are they part of page 144 of your book--of course if so what #.? Am I correct from your response above that some of the steamboats were Chinese owned but Russian flagged prior to 1917? again please identify. I didn't know that. Please don't lose patience ---English language accounts of the Boxer time are myopic--focus on Beijing and mention only in passing other locales. You are right, Chinese action's are overlooked. Stay well. I thought her account validated your own work relative to Wu Tong Shipping Company. Stimulating my interest on steamboats of the CER.

sarhang
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by sarhang » 09 Feb 2021 12:49

Yes, Jerry:
jerryasher wrote:
09 Feb 2021 00:50
the Qing Lan and the Nan Xian. Are they part of page 144 of your book--of course if so what #.?
The Nan Xian is indeed part of page 144, it is #6. Please look up p 156 as well.
The Qing Lan belonged to a different company: its sale to the Chinese is mentioned at p 112, its activities in 1918-31 are listed at pp 224-226.
jerryasher wrote:
09 Feb 2021 00:50
some of the steamboats were Chinese owned but Russian flagged prior to 1917? again please identify
The fact is reported at p 112, 1st paragraph. As you may see, only one steamer is quoted by name.
Moreover, a document quotes an important shipping company as Chinese-inspired, with Russian frontmen and flag. Its ad is at p 104.
Your questions are welcome.

jerryasher
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by jerryasher » 10 Feb 2021 07:36

Thanks Sarhang: Anything on the ships of the CER? Did any of them assist in the mobilization in 1914? partake in events in December via February 1918 at Harbiin. During the Siberian Intervention did the steamboats move Russian, Japanese or other armed forces? Thank you for your efforts.

sarhang
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by sarhang » 12 Feb 2021 14:02

Sorry to have delayed response, jerryasher.
Well, the answer is rather negative to the first two questions. I know of no mobilized troops transports by the CER steamboats in ww1. THe December/February events you mention saw the Sungari vessels ice bound. AS for the later events, I know of a 1919 incident on the Sungari where a CER gunboat (ex tug) intervened as Chinese soldiers tried to capture Japanese barge or barges which carried supplies to the Amur (p 180). ON the other hand, in 1918, a group of Russian sea officers used a CER tug to go from Harbin to the Amur as they hoped to take over the Amur gunboats in Khabarovsk. A Russian researcher published a detailed account some 10 years ago.

jerryasher
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by jerryasher » 13 Feb 2021 21:12

Many thanks Sarhang; Still in lockdown, but the Covid thing is down by 2/3rd's---still about three time what would be a "concern," so still a catastrophe. I would be interested if you could elaborate on 1.) 1918 events -dates-name of ship-brief narrative--which and when did Japanese ships enter the Sungari; seen a mention that it was the Czech Legion which asked the Japanese to send warships to the Amur in 1918. 2,) the page 180 incident--dates-ships-brief narrative. Many thanks.

sarhang
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by sarhang » 14 Feb 2021 22:35

You are welcome, jerryasher.
So, to 1) :
The article by my namesake is:
http://morsbornik.dlibrary.org/ru/nodes ... /81/zoom/3
The gist is:
In the summer of 1918, a small flotilla was formed in Harbin, the White seamen of the Harbin Sea Company intending to fight the Reds on the Amur. The first two boats enlisted, TALISMAN and RYBOLOV, went on a reconnaissance mission, finding a Red gunboat, SHKVAL watching the mouth of the Sungari. So, on the 14th of July, an expedition of the Whites set sail from Harbin, which included the two minor boats along with a CER tug, VOSMOY (I.e. #8). Their aim was to capture the gunboat, but on the 16th, at the mouth of the Sungari, the SHKVAL was already gone. So another tug, SRETENSK, was seized instead and brought to HArbin. The SRETENSK was part of the next expedition, along with the two boats, leaving Harbin on the 17th of August, still going for the SHKVAL and again to no avail. Another boat of the Reds, TUZEMETS, was captured on the Amur a little later. Early in September the Reds were ousted from Khabarovsk, so first the SRETENSK on the 8th of September and then the CER's VOSMOY on the 12th, left Harbin for the Amur with the Sea Company onboard. The idea of the seamen was to take over the Amur flotilla from the Japanese, but these would nothing of the sort.
Hoping I got it all right. ))
As for 2) and the Japanese-hired barges, I will translate the paragraph for you in a personal message tomorrow.

jerryasher
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by jerryasher » 14 Feb 2021 23:00

Thank you---your narrative is very clear.--Looking forward to tomorrow.

lupodimare89
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Re: Book on Amur and Sungari 1900

Post by lupodimare89 » 19 Mar 2021 11:52

sarhang wrote:
14 Feb 2021 22:35
In the summer of 1918, a small flotilla was formed in Harbin, the White seamen of the Harbin Sea Company intending to fight the Reds on the Amur. The first two boats enlisted, TALISMAN and RYBOLOV, went on a reconnaissance mission, finding a Red gunboat, SHKVAL watching the mouth of the Sungari. So, on the 14th of July, an expedition of the Whites set sail from Harbin, which included the two minor boats along with a CER tug, VOSMOY (I.e. #8). Their aim was to capture the gunboat, but on the 16th, at the mouth of the Sungari, the SHKVAL was already gone. So another tug, SRETENSK, was seized instead and brought to HArbin. The SRETENSK was part of the next expedition, along with the two boats, leaving Harbin on the 17th of August, still going for the SHKVAL and again to no avail. Another boat of the Reds, TUZEMETS, was captured on the Amur a little later. Early in September the Reds were ousted from Khabarovsk, so first the SRETENSK on the 8th of September and then the CER's VOSMOY on the 12th, left Harbin for the Amur with the Sea Company onboard. The idea of the seamen was to take over the Amur flotilla from the Japanese, but these would nothing of the sort.
Thanks sarhang, while i am personally very interested in the active contacts between opposite ships, i missed these early events (1918) concerning seizure of of SRETENSK and TUZEMETS, these are of interest for me not being the more widespread capture of ships by conquering harbor but a ship-on-ship contact. Do you have knowledge of other similar riverine incidents with maybe direct fighting of ships?
I have some other scraps of information for later years in spring 1920 and summer 1921 in Shilka and Sungari rivers

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