Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

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manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 11 Jun 2021 17:53

gebhk wrote:
11 Jun 2021 16:27
You don’t have a clue of what were Chinese opinion
I do not, which is why I am keen to learn what it was. Not someone else's theories about it.
but couldn’t care less to fabricate a Nationalism prevailed China
As far as I can see the only one fabricating this idea is you so please feel free to argue with yourself but please keep me out of it. Preferably elsewhere so that this topic is not closed - as per the above I am keen to learn about Chinese contemporaneous opinion.
I do not, which is why I am keen to learn what it was. Not someone else's theories about it.
-------------
Right you do not. But you are happy to jump in this thread and offer valueless opinion.
Again, I repeat, I contributed to this discussion with tons of facts. I have yet to see anyone else in this thread to do the same.

As far as I can see the only one fabricating this idea is you
---------------------
What did I fabricate? This is a serious accusation. Please come up with evidence.

I am keen to learn about Chinese contemporaneous opinion.
-----------------------
I have presented tons of facts including millions of Chinese actions. But you are not interested to learn these facts but stick to your imagination and assumptions.

David Thompson
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by David Thompson » 11 Jun 2021 23:52

Gentlemen -- Avoid personal comments about other posters and stay on the topic, Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2. Our readers are probably interested in any reliable sources of information on the subject.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jun 2021 07:07

Hi manfredzhang,

A request for sources is entirely legitimate in the terms of this forum.

Therefore, "I don’t appreciate you..... asking for what were my sources" is not an appropriate reply.

The fact that you decline to give sources and then say, "This is probably the last post I respond to you", unnecessarily puts everything you claim in question.

You like to give the impression that you know things the rest of us don't but, because you are unwilling to give any sources, this currently carries no evidential weight.

None of us know you from a bar of soap, or you us, so it is necessary to have the ability to check on what each of us claim. Without sources we can't do that.

Cheers,

Sid.

manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 12 Jun 2021 11:40

Just to be clear, if anyone else is interested in the 30K Chinese resided in Japan, I don't mind sharing. But just not to answer the request from a specific person...

David Thompson
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by David Thompson » 12 Jun 2021 14:18

manfredzhang -- The forum rules say (emphasis added):
5. Back up your claims
We wish the forum to maintain a high standard. While posting on the forum isn't on the same level as writing an academic text, we want to maintain a balanced level of scholarship.

When you include a quote, cite the source. Include enough information to allow other members to find the source themselves. As a minimum, include the author, title/issue, and page number (for monographs and serials) or a link to the specific article (for websites).
When you cite a source, the source must be of sufficiently high quality to substantiate the nature of the claim. Do not cite racist or supremacist websites, unsourced secondary articles, opinion pieces and reviews (other than as evidence of the opinion or review itself), or similar sources.
If another member challenge one of your claims, you must cite a source for your claim.
If you make a claim that is obviously controversial, you should cite a source immediately.
Do not post your opinion without supporting it with facts or context.
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manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 12 Jun 2021 14:56

Allow me to extend this topic a little bit.
The moment I see people were asking to have a poll with Chinese people in the 1930s, my first reaction is laughing. Poll is probably the last vehicle you want to use in China to draw public opinion.
Poll is very popular in English Speaking countries and other Western countries. It largely works because of the following preconditions.
1, A system that encourages independent thinking.
2, An environment promoting free speech.
3, Population is largely honest to respond (This is no longer true in recent years which led to couple of poll failures) or you have a track of record of poll behaviors.
4, Effective means to conduct the poll e.g. common usage of telephone or post mail services.

There are probably other preconditions required to make a poll effective. My point is, none of the four preconditions listed above existed in China in the 1930s.

Chinese culture along with other East Asia cultures is promoting obedience NOT independent thinking. We were trained to follow instructions and execute rather than thinking and figuring out solutions. Doesn’t mean Chinese people are stupid or have very poor problem-solving skills. It’s just the system in general does not encourage that. Living in China, even elites have a tendency to rely on others to inform them and in many cases make decisions for them.
When my dad lived in my house, the following dialogue happened almost on a daily basis.
Me: Dad, what do you want for dinner?
Dad: Whatever works for you. Anything.
Me: How about burger?
Dad: No Burger please.
Me: How about Pizza?
Dad: No Pizza.
Me: How about chicken?
Dad: No chicken.
Me: What indeed do you want?
Dad: Anything that works…
Keep in mind, I am his son. Their generation was very reluctant to express their opinion/preference/will even within families. He was born in 1939 by the way. One can imagine how earlier generations would react to a stranger asking for their opinions.

I was giving an example of a simple choice in one’s normal life. Now, when it comes to politics, the reluctance became pretendence. With a long history of authoritarian regimes, the basic instinct of survival in China is to align your opinion with the ruler’s opinion (whoever the ruler is). There were too many cases in history one speaking out their opinions and got executed along with their families. People learned that. You never know what will happen to you when you said something that was not appreciated by the ruler. Let’s say now, if you have a poll in China asking are you supporting the Communist Regime? You probably will get a 99% if not 100% approval rate. How useful/relevant that result is?
In the US, I believe the polls were largely done thru phone calls or mail. Telephone was probably commonly used in the States in the 1930s. NOT in China. Again, my own experience. My family did not have a phone until early 1990s. And I am talking about Shanghai, the most advanced city in China.
How about mail? Remember I talk about 90% illiteracy in China? So most people don’t read or write. There were a handful of literates in every village at that time. One of their core businesses was to read and write letters for the illiterates and name their children. That’s a business. The illiterates paid for such services. And you can imagine where the poll mail will end up to. Even the literates were honest to transfer the mail to their recipients, he would usually be asked, hey, help me fill the questionnaire. I don’t mind. You do it for me. So again, do you think the poll will generate any meaningful result?
That’s why I said: Don’t look at poll result (Don’t even have a poll). Don’t listen to what people are saying. Watch what they are doing. Millions migrating to Manchuria did not necessarily mean the Chinese people like Japanese but at least they didn’t hate them. There were not so much national pride/self identification in the play. They simply didn’t care who they work for. They worked for whoever paid them the best. Plain and simple.
What’s funny and more interesting is I see a bunch of people who don’t even speak/read Chinese who did not even know the basic facts (not to say interpret) came up with an assumption that the Chinese Nationalism prevailed in the 1930s.
That’s simply NOT true.
Last edited by manfredzhang on 12 Jun 2021 15:04, edited 1 time in total.

manfredzhang
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by manfredzhang » 12 Jun 2021 15:00

David Thompson wrote:
12 Jun 2021 14:18
manfredzhang -- The forum rules say (emphasis added):
5. Back up your claims
We wish the forum to maintain a high standard. While posting on the forum isn't on the same level as writing an academic text, we want to maintain a balanced level of scholarship.

When you include a quote, cite the source. Include enough information to allow other members to find the source themselves. As a minimum, include the author, title/issue, and page number (for monographs and serials) or a link to the specific article (for websites).
When you cite a source, the source must be of sufficiently high quality to substantiate the nature of the claim. Do not cite racist or supremacist websites, unsourced secondary articles, opinion pieces and reviews (other than as evidence of the opinion or review itself), or similar sources.
If another member challenge one of your claims, you must cite a source for your claim.
If you make a claim that is obviously controversial, you should cite a source immediately.
Do not post your opinion without supporting it with facts or context.
app.php/rules

I consider this is a request from you. And here is the source

https://www.zhihu.com/question/27327549

抗战爆发之后,国民政府发起了“华侨总撤退行动”,绝大部分在日本的留学生及一部分侨民,在中国驻日使领馆的协助下,回到了祖国。但是,仍有相当数量的华侨,出于各种原因,难以归国,而选择了滞留日本;有些归国华侨,后来又返回了日本。
......
日本学者安井三吉根据外务省档案考证:1937年6月底,日本本土华侨29280人,至1937年10月,撤退14199人,残留15081人。

Oh, anyone here read Chinese? Does the forum rule also impose free translation service? Let me know.

David Thompson
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Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by David Thompson » 12 Jun 2021 17:40

manfredzhang wrote, in response to the forum rules:
抗战爆发之后,国民政府发起了“华侨总撤退行动”,绝大部分在日本的留学生及一部分侨民,在中国驻日使领馆的协助下,回到了祖国。但是,仍有相当数量的华侨,出于各种原因,难以归国,而选择了滞留日本;有些归国华侨,后来又返回了日本。
......
日本学者安井三吉根据外务省档案考证:1937年6月底,日本本土华侨29280人,至1937年10月,撤退14199人,残留15081人。

Oh, anyone here read Chinese? Does the forum rule also impose free translation service? Let me know.
The Chinese passage translates as:
After the outbreak of the Anti-Japanese War, the National Government launched the "General Retreat of Overseas Chinese", the vast majority of Japanese students and some expatriates, with the assistance of Chinese embassies and consulates in Japan, returned to the motherland. However, there are still a considerable number of overseas Chinese who, for various reasons, find it difficult to return home and choose to remain in Japan;
......
According to the archives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Japanese scholar Sanji Ani said: At the end of June 1937, 29,280 overseas Chinese in Japan had been evacuated by October 1937, leaving 15,081.
from the (free) Bing translator service, at:

https://www.bing.com/Translator

Sid Guttridge
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Posts: 9525
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Chinese public opinion of Japan during World War 2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jun 2021 17:48

Hi manfredzhang,

Many thanks.

Google translate gives it similarly as, "After the outbreak of the Anti-Japanese War, the National Government launched the "Overseas Chinese Retreat Operation". Most of the students studying in Japan and some of the overseas Chinese returned to the motherland with the assistance of the Chinese Embassy in Japan. However, there are still a considerable number of overseas Chinese who, for various reasons, have difficulty returning to their country and chose to stay in Japan; some returned overseas Chinese later returned to Japan.
......
The Japanese scholar Yasui Miki, based on the archives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, verified that at the end of June 1937, there were 29,280 local overseas Chinese in Japan. By October 1937, 14,199 were retreated and 15,081 remained.
"

Also thank you for laying out your reasoning on polls so articulately.

Cheers,

Sid.

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