OOBs for Chinese Civil War

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Zebedee
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OOBs for Chinese Civil War

Post by Zebedee » 05 Mar 2005 09:22

Hi,

not quite WW2 I know but I'm hoping that the mods will forgive me for being a few months out....

I'm looking for OOBs (down to divisional levels) with locations for both sides in the Chinese Civil War. Officers' names would also be very useful.

Hugely appreciated,

S.Williams

Goldfish
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Post by Goldfish » 08 Mar 2005 13:55

I'm looking for OOBs (down to divisional levels) with locations for both sides in the Chinese Civil War. Officers' names would also be very useful.
You and me both, pal. I suppose a list could be drawn up, using Nationalist sources in Taiwan and American sources for the Nationalists and Communist sources for the Communist forces, but to my knowledge no one has done it yet, at least in English, and certainly not to the division level. Many of these records may well still be classified in both Taiwan and mainland China. I hope with China (and Taiwan) more open these days, this info will soon be available. I will let you know if I hear something.

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Zebedee
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Post by Zebedee » 08 Mar 2005 20:10

Forget the Chinese angle. I have contacts at a reasonably high general staff level in the PLA. No way Westerners can get access to their documents. As my contact said "The way things are going, give it another ten years. And then the government may think about it. And then they'll say no. Out of principle." You can piece together things from already published sources but that's more of a career than a pastime 8O

No idea about Taiwan though. Will try again via usual channels but so far I got the distinct feeling that they were stalling and not really interested in helping out.

I saw an OOB listed on orbat.com (history section, takes some digging to find, author's name includes the word 'Leigh') but I'm not too keen on paying for what could be a complete work of fiction.

If I find anything, I will of course PM you.

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Leonard
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Post by Leonard » 18 May 2005 19:57

I have quite detail OB for the KMT units in Chinese. They undergo a few stages of reorgnaisation after WWII so the designation keep changing. But at least they are pretty well documented.

CCP units are more problematic as many units are originally militia or local units that gradually becomes standardized. OB for the CCP units after the establishment of the 4 Field Armies are better documented.

My data are all in Chinese so it would be hard to translate them here. But I'd be happy to answer any questions.

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Zebedee
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Post by Zebedee » 21 May 2005 02:51

Leonard - wow! Ideally what I am looking for is OOB down to divisional level (with commander's names) at the outbreak of the Civil War. I can read Chinese so it being in Chinese is no great problem.

Will formulate some specific questions when I have some more time to myself. (It's exam season here and marking is taking a long time :( ).

Many thanks,

S. Williams

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Leonard
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Post by Leonard » 21 May 2005 06:34

Try look for this book. It has the best info on every KMT units (down to brigade) before 1949.
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Zebedee
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Post by Zebedee » 22 May 2005 02:26

Thanks Leonard. I will keep my eyes open for The History of the Nationalist Army when I next visit.

Filipe Décio
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Re: OOBs for Chinese Civil War

Post by Filipe Décio » 21 Jul 2005 20:05

Zebedee wrote:I'm looking for OOBs (down to divisional levels) with locations for both sides in the Chinese Civil War. Officers' names would also be very useful.
The most detailed info I found was scattered throughout this book on the Huai Hai campaign, available online:

http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/d ... e_huai.pdf

It's part of the Combat Studies Institute Press archive page at

http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/r ... si/csi.asp

It includes tables down to corps level for the forces involved in the campaign, and the text mentions some divisions of both armies, particularly the Nationalist.

Orbat.com has a divisional level OOB of the PLA after the creation of the numbered field armies in 1949, available from this page:

http://www.orbat.com/site/history/histo ... y1949.html

The article, also at Orbat.com, by Leigh Ingram-Seal on the Chinese Civil War is a short primer that was compiled after a request of mine at the site's message board. It includes general info on the numerical strength and organization of the Nationalist and Communist forces. It isn't really an order of battle.

Of course you experts know all about this; I'm posting it more to the benefit of other people who might be interested and find this thread.

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kutuzov
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Post by kutuzov » 23 Jul 2005 16:42

Zebedee wrote:Thanks Leonard. I will keep my eyes open for The History of the Nationalist Army when I next visit.
What about visiting some Chinese military forums since you've got a knowledge of Chinese?

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Zebedee
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Post by Zebedee » 18 Nov 2005 02:35

Thank you Felipe. It's been a very busy past few months but now have a few days to return to this project, so that info is very useful.

I am waiting for delivery of the book Leonard recommended.

kutuzov - if you can recommend any good amd reliable forums which discuss the communist forces at the time of the civil war then I would be very grateful.


All the best,

Simon

Filipe Décio
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Post by Filipe Décio » 04 Dec 2006 01:21

*bump*

Any news on this front, particularly regarding the National Revolutionary Army?

I was reminded of this when I found all the excellent new material available in Wikipedia about the Chinese and Japanese forces during the Sino-Japanese War.

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