War in China

hellraiser · Post by **hellraiser** » 14 Mar 2005 21:22

How many men did the nationalist and communist have during the war? What kind of tanks, airplanes and smallarms did they have and how many?
How big was the japanese army in China?

kookoolee7481 · Post by **kookoolee7481** » 15 Mar 2005 10:53

most japaness army all were in china

Peter H · Post by **Peter H** » 15 Mar 2005 11:23

Japanese deployments 1941-45.

From THE UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY SUMMARY REPORT(Pacific War)
http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm

DESTRUCTION OR ISOLATION OF JAPANESE GROUND FORCES
The Japanese built up their army ground forces from a strength of approximately 1,700,000 at the outbreak of war, to a peak strength of approximately 5,000,000. Japanese army medical records indicate that the aggregate number deployed in the Solomons, New Guinea, Marshalls, Gilberts, Carolines, Marianas, Philippines, Okinawa, Iwo Jima, and the Aleutians was approximately 668,000, of whom 316,000 were killed in action; some 220,000 were deployed in Burma, of whom 40,000 were killed; and 1,100,000 were deployed in China, of whom 103,000 were killed. Most of the remainder were in Manchuria, Korea, or the home islands, and did not actively participate in the decisive campaigns of the war.

Japanese numbers in China peaked at about 1.3 million in 1939/40,but dropped and stabilised at around 1 million 1941-45.

As the war progressed,some of the more better regular Japanese divisional formations moved out of the China theatre,being replaced by wartime raised reserve divisions.Consider the Japanese 38th Division---in southern China in 1940,captured Hong Kong 1941,landed in Dutch East Indies 1942,destroyed on Guadalcanal 1942/43.The 6th Division,infamous for the Rape of Nanking,ended up cut off at Rabual, New Britain.

Peak Japanese forces strength in the summer of 1945 (after Okinawa)was something like this:

Japanese homeland 2,350,000 men(53 Divisions)
NE Japanese Islands,Kuriles 75,000
Manchuria(Kwantung Army) 700,000
China 1,000,000
Bypassed Garrisons in Pacific 250,000(Rabual,New Guinea etc)
Malaya 125,000
Phillipines 200,000(remnants reduced from 450,000 deployment)
Burma 100,000
SE Asia(East Indies,IndoChina,Thailand) 200,000

Zebedee · Post by **Zebedee** » 15 Mar 2005 13:07

Hellraiser - is there a specific time you are thinking about? The numbers and forces of Chinese factions fluctuated, and their equipment was never standardised, so if you can give me a specific time, I can try to give you some answers.

NB Except for start of civil war. I have only very rough figures to go on for that

hellraiser · Post by **hellraiser** » 15 Mar 2005 13:13

Im looking for numbers during the entire war (1937-1945). When did the chinese strength peak? Could Chinese equipment be compared to japanese or were the chinese inferior?
When chinese forces were as largest, how many men were in the nationalist army and communist army? And I would also like information about their equipment, tanks, guns and airplanes, both quantity and quality.
Any information about japanese invasion in july 1937 and battle of Shanghai is also very welcome. How big was the japanese invasion force and how many participated and died in the battle of Shanghai?

hellraiser · Post by **hellraiser** » 15 Mar 2005 13:18

I would also like to know about chinese casualties.
Most sources say that about 2-3 million soldiers and 10 million civilians died. How accurate is this?

Zebedee · Post by **Zebedee** » 15 Mar 2005 14:31

China's casualty figures.

list compiled by: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm

Military:
Britannica: 1,310,224 (Nationalists, 1937-45)
Compton's: 1,310,224 (Nationalists, 1937-45)
HarperCollins: 1,324,000
Clodfelter
KMT: 1,319,958 KIA
Communists: admit to 500,000 d., but true toll probably 2M soldiers + civilians in Comm. areas.
Total: 3M

Ellis: 1,400,000
Eckhardt: 650,000 (1937-41, incl. Japanese), 1,350,000 (1941-45)
Small & Singer: 750,000 (1937-41), 1,350,000 (after Dec. 1941)
Wallechinsky: 2,219,958
Nationalists (1937-45): 1,319,958
Communists: 500,000
non-Comm. guerrillas: 400,000
Urlanis: 2,500,000
Encarta: 3,500,000
Rummel: 3,832,000
Nationalist + Communist battle: 1,900,000
Disease: 1,500,000
Japanese puppet Chinese: 432,000
Kinder: 6,400,000

MEDIAN: ca. 2,050,000 (2.0M-2.1M)

Civilian:

Eckhardt: 1,150,000 (1937-41), 850,000 (1941-45)
Kinder: 4,500,000
Wallechinsky: 2-10M (1937-45)
Urlanis: 7,500,000
Ellis: 8,000,000
HarperCollins: up to 10,000,000
Encarta: 10,000,000
Rummel: 15,608,000
Civilian, non-democidal: 3,252,000
Famine: 2,250,000
Democide:
by Japanese: 3,949,000
by Nationalists: 5,907,000
by Communists: 250,000
MEDIAN: ca. 7,750,000 (7.5M-8.0M)

Total:

Messenger: 2.5M
Eckhardt: 4M
Wallechinsky: 4.2-12.2M
Ellis: 9.4M
Urlanis: 10M
Kinder: 10.9M
HarperCollins: < 11M
Encarta: 13.5M
Martin Gilbert A History of the Twentieth Century v.3 (citing Ho Ping-ti): 15-20M
Rummel: 20.44M

MEDIAN: ca. 10,450,000 (10.0M-10.9M)

hellraiser · Post by **hellraiser** » 15 Mar 2005 15:24

come again?

Zebedee · Post by **Zebedee** » 15 Mar 2005 19:54

It's a list of various sources estimates of Chinese losses during WW2. Some are broken down into separate parts, others are just overall estimates.

The list takes a median of the figures offered by the sources. So a rough estimate would be 10.5 million deaths in total with roughly 2/3 of these being civillians.

mars · Post by **mars** » 15 Mar 2005 23:02

Peter, the number of Japanese military personal died in China between 1937 and 1945 were 400,000 to 500,000, that did not included those Japanese killed in the war against USSR. Chinese military personals (include both Nationalist and Communist) were around 1.5 million, but those included those killed fighting against each other and in the battles agains chinese puppet army back by Japanese, it looks like no one know how many those soldiers of those chinese puppet army were killed in the war.

Peter H · Post by **Peter H** » 16 Mar 2005 07:42

mars,
Have you a source for the Japanese death figure of 400-500,000?

Thanks,
Peter

Zebedee · Post by **Zebedee** » 16 Mar 2005 11:56

I've always seen figures of c.1 million for total Japanese and puppet government deaths in China from military action.

eg
500 000 Japanese killed in China
Clodfelter, Michael, Warfare and Armed Conflict: A Statistical Reference to Casualty and Other Figures, 1618-1991

and

432 000 Chinese puppet government troops killed

Rummel, R.J.China's Bloody Century: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900

Rummel's figures always seem to be a little high to me, but he has no doubt done an awful lot more research than me on this subject

hellraiser · Post by **hellraiser** » 20 Mar 2005 17:46

Is there anyone who could provide me with information about chinese armed forces during the course of the war: manpower, armored veichels, airplanes etc.?

Zebedee · Post by **Zebedee** » 21 Mar 2005 03:48

Hi hellraiser,

a complete listing of the Chinese forces for the entirety of WW2 is a little too much work for me to type out at the moment. If you can narrow it down to a specific time period, I would be happy to try and help.

The Chinese forces were not standardised in any way, desertion was ludicrously high, 'generals' claimed bayonet strengths way in excess of what they actually had, some 'generals' would nominally be part of the KMT but not contribute a single soldier or maintain a de facto ceasefire with the Japanese; these and many other factors make KMT and Communist forces rather difficult to quantify.

(source: conversations with officer of PRC army who served with Communist forces during WW2, nameless for obvious reasons)

A quick search using http://www.google.co.uk might help a bit.

Here are some sites I found within a couple of minutes of looking:

http://users.senet.com.au/~mhyde/ww2_aircraft_china.htm

http://www.geocities.com/wargame_au/Chi ... sArmy.html

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Stor ... 945_ed.htm

Goldfish · Post by **Goldfish** » 21 Mar 2005 06:32

I don't know if a fully accurate count can ever be made of the Chinese forces in WWII. The Nationalist army was more of an alliance or coalition with many local War Area commanders responsible for raising and arming their own troops. Many other formations were understrength, with some having as little as 30% their paper strength. Chinese divisional commanders were paid and supplied based on the number of men on their rolls and many kept dead men and unarmed auxilliaries on the rolls as soldiers to boost their pay. Therefore, even with original roll sheets and other documents, an accurate count may never be possible.

Weapons pose a similar problem. Because of the warlord background of many commanders, weapons and equipment came from a variety of sources. I visited the Military Museum in Beijing and in their WWII weapons room, they have almost every small arm produced by every country from 1900 to 1950. Nationalist troops received weapons from the Germans, Italians, Finns, Russians, British, Americans, and (for some units) French. Some carried muskets or even spears and long beheading swords. Officer's sidearms were usually private purchase and an even wider variety were used. Later in the war, captured Japanese weapons equipped more and more troops, especially Communist.

Chinese histories of the war are very difficult to work with, aside from just the language difficulty, because of their political nature. Communist histories play down the contribution of Nationalist and Allied forces and overemphasize the capabilities of their guerillas. The Communists were very good at organizing resistance, but their lack of heavy weapons and brutal Japanese supression campaigns limited their effectiveness more than the Communists admitted at the time. Nationalist histories are very accurate in some areas, but, of course, downplay the contributions of the Communists. In addition, many commanders who later turned against Chiang or defected to the Communists have had their contributions erased or reduced. American histories, eager to explain why China had fallen to the Communists, focus on the corruption and inefficiency of Chiang and his commanders. Together, they form a good picture of China at war, but the full story has yet to be written.