Battle of Changsha

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zstar
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Battle of Changsha

Post by zstar » 22 Mar 2005 02:26

I heard it was the last time Japanese forces attempted to penetrate central China but is it true Japan went in without infantry to support the tanks?

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Post by Goldfish » 22 Mar 2005 09:10

Which time? I think there were about four battles of Changsha.

zstar
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Post by zstar » 22 Mar 2005 13:57

Well the one after Wuhan

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asiaticus
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3 Battles for Changsha

Post by asiaticus » 02 Apr 2005 10:35

All three battles of Changsha happened after the battle of Wuhan

1st Battle of Changsha Aug. - Oct. 1939

2nd Battle of Changsha Sept. - Oct. 1941

3rd Battle of Changsha Late Dec. 1941 - Jan. 1942

The failure to take Changsha made it difficult to advance further up the Yangtse River. Later in 1944 the Ichigo Offensive advanced deep into the interior but that didnt help when they were loosing the war in the Pacific.

Japan didnt get formal combined arms units of tanks and infantry together until 1942-3. Attempts were made as early as 1937 with mixed brigades of tank battalions and infantry but the coordination wasnt there. Tanks seemed to race off on their own. The 5th and 10th Divisions in 1938 had 100 tanks assigned to each in 1938 when they atempted to attack Taierzhang but that turned into a debacle too.

Battle of Nomonhan / Khalkhin Gol the tanks again got ahead of the infantry they were supposed to be cooperating with and 3rd Tank Regt. was cut up pretty badly. 4th Regt made a night attack alone without support and the surprise allowed them to create a lot of havoc in the Russian lines before they pulled back. Later in daylight attacks the Russians separated them from their infantry and mauled them too.


check this site for the history of Japanese armour battles.
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/

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What were the IJA losses during the 2nd and 3rd battles

Post by Gaijinaho » 21 May 2006 03:47

of Changsha? I have searched the forums and haven't seen them, although I may well have missed them.
Thanks Gaijinaho

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asiaticus
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What were the IJA losses during the 2nd and 3rd battles

Post by asiaticus » 21 May 2006 08:06

What were the IJA losses during the 2nd and 3rd battles of Changsha?
According to Hsu Long-hsuen and Chang Ming-kai, History of The Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)

2nd battle of Changsha: over 40, 000 Japanese casualties

3rd battle of Changsha: over 50, 000 Japanese casualties

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Thanks!

Post by Gaijinaho » 21 May 2006 09:09

Thanks Asiaticus!
Later, Gaijinaho

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Akira Takizawa
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Re: What were the IJA losses during the 2nd and 3rd battles

Post by Akira Takizawa » 21 May 2006 13:45

According to Japanese source,

2nd Battle - 1,670 killed, 5,184 wounded
3rd Battle - 1,591 killed, 4,412 wounded

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asiaticus
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Re: What were the IJA losses during the 2nd and 3rd battles

Post by asiaticus » 21 May 2006 18:03

Somehow I am not surprised at the discrepancy. :^) Looks like we have reports from two different worlds here.

Going further than just the casualties the Hsu Long-hsuen book lists other things:

2nd Battle - "1347 rifles, 38 machineguns, 6 feild guns, 9 infantry guns,871 mules and horses, 8 armoured cars, and 269 men captured. "

3rd Battle - "4 regimental commanders killed or wounded, 139 soldiers captured together with 1138 rifles and carbines, 115 machineguns, 11 guns, 26 pistols, 20 grenade launchers, 9 radios, and large quantities of military supplies. "

I have to say these other figures seem more in line with the Japanese reported casualties than the Chinese reported ones.

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