Actions of the Chinese Nationalist Navy

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Edward L. Hsiao
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Actions of the Chinese Nationalist Navy

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 08 Apr 2005 23:20

Gentlemen!

The history of the Chinese Nationalist Navy during the Sino-Japanese War is a little known topic even today. Can you find an example of that navy that won a surface water battle against the Imperial Japanese Navy? All I know is that the Chinese Navy did a lot of lake patrols with their gunboats and mining with their minelayers.

Sincerely,

Edward

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Steve
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Post by Steve » 11 Apr 2005 14:57

I hope that though the following is not what you are looking for exactly it will be more interesting than nothing.

In 1937 the Chinese navy totalled 59 vessels. The largest were six light cruisers none of which exceeded 3600 tons. Supporting these were 30 gunboats and a miscellanious collection of 23 gunboats, sloops and transport vessels. Most of these were sunk in the Yangtze, at Shanghai, Tsingtao and Canton during 1937 falling victim to Japanese bombing and artillery fire. Some vessels were beached and salvaged by the Japanese and there was an interesting post a while back about a light cruiser used by the Japanese. In 1945 there was one torpedo boat and 13 river gunboats. Five of these gunboats were former British, American and French craft, transferred when their Western crews had crossed overland from Burma.

The uniform was standardised in 1913 on the European pattern. Though they had no navy to speak of during the war they had a Naval Attache in London Commander Chow Ying-tsung.

From World War 11-The Armed Forces Published by Orbis Publishing 1980

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Post by Windward » 12 Apr 2005 15:34

Chinese torpedo boats attacetd Japanese armor cruiser Izumo, flagship of IJN's 3rd fleet, but all attempts failed.

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"Fleet in Being?"

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 09 May 2005 06:31

Gentlemen,

I'm dismayed that much of the Chinese Nationalist Navy remained in port and were sitting ducks for Japanese air attacks. Do they have a "Fleet in Being" policy just like the Germans had during World War I and II? I think the only ships of the Chinese Nationalist Navy that did effective work in damaging and sinking Japanese ships in lakes and rivers were the minelayers that did defensive work with mines.

Sincerely,

Edward

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Lornito Uriarte Mahinay Jr.
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Post by Lornito Uriarte Mahinay Jr. » 11 Jan 2007 08:15

'The history of the Chinese Nationalist Navy during the Sino-Japanese War is a little known topic even today. Can you find an example of that navy that won a surface water battle against the Imperial Japanese Navy? All I know is that the Chinese Navy did a lot of lake patrols with their gunboats and mining with their minelayers.'

Have you already read the book HISTORY OF THE SINO-JAPANESE WAR (1937-1945)? I will give you some informations if you dont have read the book.

BARON

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Lornito Uriarte Mahinay Jr.
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Post by Lornito Uriarte Mahinay Jr. » 11 Jan 2007 08:19

Most of the contents of thebook is all about the river patrol and minilaying operations but included those in Shanghai and other war areas.

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Post by Lornito Uriarte Mahinay Jr. » 11 Jan 2007 08:24

Baron.waffen wrote:Most of the contents of the book is all about the river patrol and minilaying operations but included those in Shanghai and other war areas.


Theres another topic in this website entitled Chinese Navy flagship: Ning Hai class light cruisers in the WW2 in the Pacific & Asia section.

BARON

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Post by Jerry Asher » 12 Jan 2007 07:03

On several occassions Chinese naval units attacked Japanese ships. The most famous was during mid August 1937, when 102 attacked the Izumo in the Huangpu River. The river is less than a thousand feet wide at that point, and the best 102 was get a 50o angle. Izumo was undamaged. There were more attacks during 1938 countering the Japanese advance up the Yangzi River, near Juijiang. Riverine warfare is not glamorous,
but the Chinese use of mines was on a very large scale.

At start of fighting Chinese had almost a dozen MTB's with some world class MTB's on order. Three were delivered to Hong Kong in February 1938, one burned and two after internment entered the Royal Navy and were use as part of MTB Div 2 at Hong Kong.
While prefixes were different, I have not encountered a single instance in which the numerals were duplicated.

At heart however, China accepted its inability to conduct conventional naval war as it was understood at that time.

Chinese passive measures, the scuttling of ships to block access or render harbor unuseable were very good.
Would love to hear more from anybody on Chinese navy.

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Post by Windward » 17 Jan 2007 18:06

Chinese navy was too weak and negligible to be a "fleet in being". And in fact it was diveded into several cliques: Min clique (the 1st fleet), consisted by naval officers from Fujian province, which was the largest and strongest in China; the second largest, Northeast (Manchurian) navy (the 3rd fleet since 1933) once commanded by Zhang Zuolin and stayed in Chinese harbors when Japanese took over Manchuria in 1931-1932); a weak Cantonese navy (the 4th fleet, with some river gunboats and armed ships); and a minor "Central (national) navy", which was Chiang Kai-shek's own clique and has dozens of brand new MTBs from UK and Germany. On Sep 25 1937, when two antique cruisers of the 1st fleet (Min clique) were decided to be scuttled, navy commander Chen Shaokuan (head of Min clique) demanded that the other two cuisers which not belong to his clique should be scuttled too.

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Post by Windward » 17 Jan 2007 18:15

Chinese cruiser Hai Chi (海圻), one of the four aged cruisers that were scuttled in Yantze River as blockade. Photo taken in 1911, Portsmouth, before King George V's coronation.
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Post by Jerry Asher » 18 Jan 2007 07:23

Many thanks Windward, Had not heard of feuding over scuttling of ships before/

I've a list of 21 of the reported 35 ships schuttled. Can we compare? What is best spelling of site" I have Kiangyin and other possibles

Have you encountered a site map of the block? Japanese have a partial, but without names.

Data on other places of scuttling? Min Rive for Fouzhou, Pearl for Guangzhou?
Liangyungang, Qingdao

Understand from Chinese news agency that last six ships of Matang/ Madang block not cleared until March 2002.

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Post by Windward » 23 Jan 2007 06:54

Ships scuttled in Jiangyin (Kiangyin) on Aug 12:

cruisers (sloops):
Datong/大同
Ziqiang/自强

training ship:
Tongji/通济

seaplane tender:
Weisheng/威胜
Desheng/德胜

gunboat:
Wusheng/武胜

torpedo boat:
Chen/辰
Su/宿

merchant ships:
Jiahe/嘉禾
Xinming/新铭
Tonghua/同华
Yushun/遇顺
Taishun/泰顺
Guangli/广利
Xingshi/醒狮
Huaxin/华新
Huai'an/迴安
Tongli/通利
Ningjing/宁静
Kunxing/鲲兴
Xin Ping'an/新平安
Maoli II/茂利二号
Yuanchang/源长
Muyou/母佑
Huafu/华富
Dalong/大篢
Tonghe/通和
Ruikang/瑞康
Gongping/公平
Wanzai/万宰
Yongji/泳吉

these ships were scuttled together with 185 sampans, junks, and eight pontoons that confiscated from Japanese shipping companies


four old cruisers were scuttled on Sep 25.
Hai Chi / 海圻
Hai Rong / 海容
Hai Chou / 海筹
Hai Chen / 海琛

total: 43 ships, 63,800 tons

regards

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Post by Windward » 23 Jan 2007 12:50

if you can read Chinese there's an interesting page,
http://www.shtong.gov.cn/node2/node2245 ... index.html
salvage works in Yangtze river after 1950

Beside the famous Kiangyin block, there were also some not so famous blockades in Chinese rivers, such as:

3 block lines in Huangpu River, Shanghai, consist by 1 navy transport ship, 6 captured Japanese cargo ships and 14 Chinese merchant ships, they were scuttled between August 14th and 17th, 1937;

Wulong Shan (乌龙山) near Zhenjiang, Yangtze River, Jiangsu province: Built in August and September 1937, consisted by 4 merchant ships, 1 pontoon, and tens of sampans. The provincial government of Jiangsu also sunk numerous sampans in inland rivers;

Madang (马当), Yangtze River, Hubei province: constructed in December 1937, consisted by 4 merchant ships and 5 pontoons; lengthened between March and June 1938, 9 more ships, 8 junks and more than 600 small sampans were scuttled.

Tianjiazhen (田家镇), Yangtze River, Hubei province: 10 concrete ships were scuttled in July 1938 (originally plan to scuttle 12 merchant ships)

Gedian (葛店), Yangtze River, Hubei province: Concrete ships, scuttled in Sep 1938

Shishou (石首), Yangtze River, Hubei province: 20 small merchant ships (1645 tons) were scuttled in Nov 1938, more pontoons were scattled in 1939

Xiang River (湘江): 7 ships and several junks were scuttled in Nov 1938 to prevent Japanese gunboats enter Dongting Lake.



Shandong province: 12 aged warships and 1 merchant ship were scuttled by Chinese 3rd Fleet on Dec 12 1937. 4 of them were sunk in Liugongdao, Weihai, and other 9 were scuttled in Qingdao. Later more than 20 ships were scuttled in Qingdao to block the harbor.

Jiangsu province: the harbor of Lianyungang was demolished by Chinese engineers in Sep 1937, they also scuttled 6 merchant ships (10747 tons). In 1938, the watercourse which links Guan River (灌河) and Lianyungang was also blocked by 3 ships (more than 9000 tons).

Zhejiang province: the mouth of Yong River (甬江), which leads to Ningbo, the biggest industrial city of Zhejiang province, were blocked in 1939 by 6 ships, 3 small landing crafts, 8 junks. Two other merchant ships were scuttled in July 1940.

Fujian province: the mouth of Min River was blocked by 60+ ships (cargo ships, patrol boats, junks, pontoons) between Sep 1937 and Sep 1938. Jin River (晋江) and some armlets were also blocked.

Guangdong province: the mouths of Pearl River were blocked by 12 retired warships, 17 merchant ships and 135 junks


source: http://engine.cqvip.com/content/k/81563 ... 9749009.pd
(in Chinese, registed members only)


regards

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Post by Jerry Asher » 24 Jan 2007 01:52

Wow --Windward what a pleaure and treasure you are--I think the dissemination of this data is very helpful.

I matched up your list for Jiangyin:
Xinming is Hsing ming 2,133 tons
Tonghua Tung Wah 1,176 tons
Yushan 1,696 tons
Yaishun 1,962
Guangli Kwanglee 2,359
Xingshi HsingShih 1,949
Huafu HwaFoo 2,833
Gongping Kungping 2,705

I also have Sungpu 1951 tons
Yuhsing 1560
Suikong 2191
Ka Ho 1733
assume I could convert from Wade Giles if I had tonnage.

The naval ships match up.

I offer that the 2,353 ton China Trader was scuttled on August 16th.

Is it your understanding that the total of 43 ships and 63,800 tons included naval ships? If so it seems to me that we are getting much closer to a complete picture, and for myself am delighted how a new realization is possible.

Will offer data and commentary on Huangpu bloc next and stuff on other sites after that. Many thanks Windward-- Hope others can join in, and relish learning.

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Post by Windward » 24 Jan 2007 08:20

http://www.shtong.gov.cn/node2/node2245 ... 74961.html

here's a detailed list 40 of the 43 scuttled ships raised by Shanghai Salvage Bureau near Kiangyin in the 1950s and 1960s.

translation:

========================================

23 merchant ships (same as the previous list):

“华富” 系货轮,沉于靖江罗家桥港口外,1954年捞浮。

Huafu (Hua Fu), cargo ship, raised in 1954, site: Luojiaqiao, Jingjiang

“万宰” 系货轮,沉于靖江罗家桥港口外,1956年捞浮。

Wanzai(Wan Zai), cargo ship, raised in 1956, site: Luojiaqiao, Jingjiang

“永吉” 系客轮,沉于靖江罗家桥港口外,1958年捞浮。

Yong Ji, passenger ship, raised in 1958, site: Luojiaqiao, Jingjiang

“新平安” 系货轮,沉于江阴阻塞线南漕,1958年捞起。

Xin Ping An, cargo ship, raised in 1958, site: Nancao, the south end of Jiangyin block line

“公平” 系山岛式海货轮,该轮长105米、宽12.5米、深7米,总吨位7000吨。经测量,沉船前部第二舱及甲板已全部断裂,后部第二舱左右舷各有破洞及裂缝。打捞方案采用浮筒整体抬浮,估算打捞重量2813吨,选用浮筒2450千牛(250吨)2对,980千牛(100吨)1对,3920千牛(400吨)1对。“公平”轮由于沉没多年,船底淤泥积沙有几米厚,打捞工人采取高速流水作业法,加快除泥进度,夜以继日争时间。该工程自1958年9月17日开工,同年10月31日完工,实际工作42天。

Gong Ping, cargo ship, length 105m, weidth 12.5m, 7000 tons, broken, raised between Sep 17 and Oct 31 1958.

“毋佑” 系货轮,沉于罗家桥港口外,1958年10月31日捞起。

Wu You ("Muyou"), cargo ship, raised on Oct 31 1958, site: Luojiaqiao

“遇顺” 系国民党招商局海货轮,船长82.91米、宽11.28米、深6.40米,总吨位3000吨。民国27年间沉于江阴阻塞线长山脚附近,四周水深19米。经测量,沉船前、后桅及烟囱均已折断,装货过门处裂断,前大舱附近主甲板破失一大块。1958年9月14日开工打捞,11月19日完工,施工采用浮筒抬浮方法。

Yu Shun, cargo ship, l=82.91m, w=11.28m, d=6.40m, 3000 tons, raised between Sep 14 and Nov 19 1959, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“宁静” 系货轮,沉于罗家桥港口外,1959年打捞。

Ning Jing, cargo ship, raised in 1959, site: Luojiaqiao

“茂利” 系货轮,沉于罗家桥港口外,1959年打捞。

Mao Li (II), cargo ship, raised in 1959, site: Luojiaqiao

“瑞康” 系货轮,沉于罗家桥港口外,1959年打捞。

Rui Kang, cargo ship, raised in 1959, site: Luojiaqiao

“新铭” 系货轮,沉于罗家桥港口外,1960年4月7日捞起。

Xin Ming, cargo ship, raised on Apr 7 1960, site: Luojiaqiao

“大篢” 系货轮,沉于江阴长山脚,1960年打捞。

Da Long, cargo ship, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“源长” 系货轮,沉于江阴长山脚,1960年打捞。

Yuan Chang, cargo ship, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“通利” 系货轮,沉于江阴长山脚,1960年打捞。

Tong Li, cargo ship, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“嘉禾” 系货轮,沉于江阴长山脚,1960年打捞。

Jia He, cargo ship, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“华新” 系货轮,沉于江阴长山脚附近,1960年打捞。

Hua Xin, cargo ship, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“泰顺” 系货轮,民国26年沉于江阴长山脚附近,1960年打捞。

Tai Shun, cargo ship, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“同华” 系货轮(柚木船),沉于江阴长山脚附近,1960年打捞。

Tong Hua, cargo ship (built by teak), raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“广利” 系货轮,船长89.3米、宽12米、深7.5米,沉于江阴长山脚附近。打捞开始时,船体已被泥沙掩埋。考虑到当地河床已严重变迁,打捞起浮后亦无法出窝拖航,上海打捞工程局在潜水作业中,首先从泥沙中将船体冲出,然后挖10米水深航道1条,总共除泥沙达20万立方米,故群众称打捞“广利”轮是“沙里淘金”。该轮于1958年捞起。

Guang Li, cargo ship, 2300+ tons, raised in 1958, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“通和” 系货轮(柚木船),沉于江阴长山脚附近,1961年打捞。

Tong He, cargo ship (built by teak), raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“回安” 系货轮,沉于江阴阻塞线南北浮间,1964年打捞。

Hui An, cargo ship, rised in 1964, site: between northrn and southern bouys of Jiangyin block line

“醒狮” 系货轮,沉于江阴阻塞线南北浮间,1964年打捞。

Xing Shi, cargo ship, rised in 1964, site: between northrn and southern bouys of Jiangyin block line

“鲲兴” 系货轮,沉于江阴阻塞线南北浮间,1964年打捞。

Kun Xing, cargo ship, rised in 1964, site: between northrn and southern bouys of Jiangyin block line

==============================================

9 warships:

“海圻” 舰长129.27米、宽14.27米、深约9米,排水量约2980吨。该舰原系国民政府海军的轻型装甲巡洋舰,民国26年沉于江阴水下阻塞线长山脚附近。1959年冬,上海打捞工程局派工程队施工时,发现沉船船体的一舷已被炸去一部分,并折断和横卧在江底泥沙中。若分段打捞,则要花费大量的切割工作。工程人员采用了6对4900千牛(500吨)浮筒、2对2450千牛(250吨)浮筒整体抬浮方法,于1960年5月27日使“海圻”舰顺利起浮拖至福姜沙滩地,后分二段拖绞上浅滩拆解处理。
Hai Chi, cruiser, 2980 tons, partly exploded by Japanese in 1940, cutted and raised apart in 1959/1960, scrapped nearby

“海容” 系巡洋舰,沉于罗家桥港口外,1959年4月25日捞起。

Hai Rong, cruiser, raised on Apr 25 1959, site: Luojiaqiao

“海琛” 系巡洋舰,沉于江阴长山脚附近,1960年打捞。

Hai Chen, cruiser, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“海筹” 系巡洋舰,沉于江阴阻塞线南北浮间,1964年打捞。

Hai Chou, cruiser, rised in 1964, site: between northrn and southern bouys of Jiangyin block line

“大同” 系炮舰,沉于罗家桥港口外,1959年打捞。

Da Tong, sloop, raised in 1959, site: Luojiaqiao

“威胜” 系炮舰,沉于江阴阻塞线长山脚附近,1960年打捞。

Wei Sheng, gunboat/sloop, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“武胜” 系炮舰,沉于江阴阻塞线长山脚附近,1960年打捞。

Wu Sheng, gunboat/sloop, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“德胜” 系炮舰,舰长65.8米、宽9.5米、深5.78米,总吨位2000吨。于民国26年自沉于江阴阻塞线长山山脚。1959年,采用浮筒打捞,分前后二段抬浮。

De Sheng, sloop(?), 2000 tons, cutted in half, raised apart in 1959, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“通济” 系海军练习舰,舰长77米、宽10米、高7米,总重6000吨。民国26年沉于江阴长山脚附近。据测量,沉舰整个舰身陷入江底泥沙下8米。工程采用浮筒打捞法,自1962年2月起,3个月时间共清除泥沙13万多立方米,于5月底沉舰起浮。

Tong Ji, training ship, 6000 tons, raised between Feb and May 1962, site: site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

two torpedo boats (Chen and Su) and one sloop (Zi Qiang) were not salvaged


=================================================

7 captured Japanese pontoons and barges:

“泰安” 系趸船,沉于江阴长山脚,1960年打捞。

Tai An, pontoon, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“汉安” 系木质趸船,沉于江阴阻塞线南北浮间,1964年打捞。

Han An, wooden pontoon, raised in 1964, site: between northrn and southern bouys of Jiangyin block line

“福安” 系趸船,沉于江阴阻塞线南北浮间,1960年打捞。

Fu An, pontoon, raised in 1960, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“吉安” 系铁驳,150吨,沉于江阴黄山下长山脚,1953年12月1日捞起。

Ji An, barge, 150 tons, raised on Dec 1 1953, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“贞安” 系趸船,沉于江阴阻塞线南北浮间,1964年打捞。

Zhen An, pontoon, rised in 1964, site: between northrn and southern bouys of Jiangyin block line

“德安” 系趸船,船长91.4米、宽15.98米、深3.65米。民国26年间沉于江阴阻塞线长山脚附近。打捞时,沉船艏艉均已被炸坏,船身后部右舷旁板及部分甲板已被炸掉,船身中部有严重折绉,船底转角有裂缝。沉船四周水深10.5~10.8米。打捞作业自1958年11月2日至12月30日,用打捞浮筒抬浮。

De An, pontoon, l=91.4m, w=15.98m, d= 3.65m, raised between Nov 12 and Dec 30 1958, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

“沙市” 系趸船(又说渔船),沉于江阴阻塞线长山脚附近,1968年打捞。

Sha Shi, pontoon, rised in 1968, site: Changshanjiao, Jiangyin

one barge/pontoon (Yong Qing 永清) were not salvaged


===========================================================

Ka Ho = Jiahe?
Sui Kong = Rui Kang?


PS, the 43 scuttled ships include naval ships.

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