Actions of the Chinese Nationalist Navy

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Windward
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Post by Windward » 24 Jan 2007 08:35

BTW I was wrong in another post, the merchant ships were not all scuttled on Aug 12 1937. 8 warships and 20 merchant ships were scuttled on that day, 3 more merchant ships (Gong Ping, Wan Zai, Yong Ji) and 8 Japanese barges (pontoons?) were scuttled several days later.

regards

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Post by Windward » 24 Jan 2007 08:43

the last moment of cruiser "Hai Chi", Sep 25 1937, Jiangyin. Cruiser "Hai Chen" on the rear
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Post by Windward » 24 Jan 2007 08:44

line draws of Chinese cruisers
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Post by Windward » 24 Jan 2007 08:45

light cruiser "Ning Hai", flagship of Chinese navy in 1937
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Jerry Asher
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Post by Jerry Asher » 25 Jan 2007 05:24

Please accept my highest regards Windward

That so few of the scuttled ships could be raised by the Japanese and used tells us that the demolition work was of high quality.

In the Huangpu I have only a few Chinese ships:

Pu An/ 4,284 tons/ Navy transport12/13 Aug 37
Tung Lee 12/13 Aug 137
Chunghsing/2,748 tons/ 18 Aug 37
Wanhsing scuttled 29 Aug 37

And the following Japanese ships:

Loyang Maru/4,378 ton/18 Aug 37
Changyang Maru/18 Aug 37
Shangyang/ 18 Aug 37
Nangyang/ 18 Aug 37
Suiyang/ 18 Aug 37
Sungshan/ 24 Aug 37

I have some English and Italian references that note the effectiveness of the bloc.

Also a number of junks and sampans-- In a Japanese publication there is a schematic of the work.
Any help on the missing Chinese ships would be appreaciated.

Where is Wulong Shan? I have some into on two of four ships, but you citation of Zhenjiang surprised me. Is Zhenjiang near Jiangyin?

I'm hopeing our discussion helps others. Years ago in an American naval history of Chinese naval devlopment there was a dismissal of Chinese traditional passive mesures that has always bothered me.

Again many thanks.

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Post by Windward » 25 Jan 2007 07:58

hi Jerry,

Wulongshan (Black Dragon Hill) is a place near Nanjing/Nankin. It belonged to Zhenjiang municipality, capital of Jiangsu province, in 1937. Now it belongs to Nanjing municipality and is a forest park. You can see the map.

regards
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Post by Jerry Asher » 26 Jan 2007 07:19

Hi Windward:
What's a financial contributor--I mean how? what cost?

Again many thanks:

I had in my mind the Wulongshan was west of Wuhan. Never thought of the progression Jiangyin-Wulongshan--Nanjing, or seen anything in print. The two ships I have there are the 2,409 ton Hai Hsiang and Hai Jui of China Merchants Steam Navigation Company, in my records sunk in June 1940 near Ichang, my source is work by the Australians Kentwell and Dick.

Hope others are enjoying our exchanges. I have two IJN minesweepers sunk by Chinese mines. One the Yuki Maru in December 1937, Yangzi near Jiangyin and the other the Choan Maru in October 1938 off Humen near Guangzhou. There are many Choan Maru and I haven't a clue as to which one. It struck one of 305 mines planted by Chinese defense forces in that area.

In Japanese accounts, they refer to an anchorage established in July 1937 in the Zhoushan Islands. They call it Ma'an Maan ? Is that the same group as the Qi Qu Qun Dao about sixty miles east of Jingshanwei?

Warmest regards--stay well.

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Post by Windward » 26 Jan 2007 11:29

Dear Jerry,

well, a financial supporter is the one who support Axis History Forum, which is runned by Mr. Marcus Wendel, by financial support. members can help the forum (rent servers, daily maintenance) by donating some money:
viewtopic.php?t=966

anyway we share informations and knowledges here is also helping the forum. And thanks for your useful informations.

this site, http://www.zgsyb.com/Article/ArticleSho ... cleID=9571 ("Yangtze River, the major course of Chinese transportation during Sino-Japanese War") gives some more information

"...In the early period of the Sino-Japanese War, the Ministry of Transportation and Chinese navy confiscated some Chinese and Japanese merchant ships to built block lines in Huangpu River, Jiangyin and Madang. In June 1938, another plan was raised to build another block line in Tianjiazhen (田家镇), Wuxue (武穴), Hubei province. The Hankow Shipping Bureau built 4 concret ships (3000 tons each) in Hankow, and then saved 16 precious ships for transportation between Hankow and Yichang.

"...In September 1939, the commander of Jingsha fortification and Hubei Shipping Bureau confiscated merchant ships “汉东” (Handong), “福泰” (Futai), “福新” (Fuxin/Fu Hsin), “新保和” (Xin Baohe), “建昌” (Jianchang), “和丰”, (Hefeng), “汉池” (Hanchi) and some barges, scuttled them in Zhangjiatan shallow (张家滩), Shishou prefecture (石首), Hubei Province.

"...In May 1940, another 3 ships -- “慎安” (Shen'an), “华利” (Huali), “汉和” (Hanhe) and 3 pontoons (Hankow I, II and III) were confiscated together with tens of junks, then scuttled in Gulaobei (古老背) and Gezhouba (葛洲坝, a huge power dam was built in the 1970s there), Yichang prefecture.

"...When Wuhan falled in 1938, the Ministry of the Navy built another block line in Chenglingji (城陵矶). 650 mines were laid on Nov 7 1938. Chenglingji falled during the next day. Chinese Navy laid 6544 mines between Jingjiang (an alias of Yangtze River in Hubei province) and Dongtinghu Lake. Chinese Air Force also laid 1184 mines between Apr 24 1940 and Sep 17 1941. These mines laid by navy and air force sunk 29 Japanese ships and brought more than 200 casualties."

and this is interesting (from same page):

"...In June 1939, the Yangtze River Defence headquarters decided that all ships in Hubei province, despite those which were confiscated or belong to foreign shipping companies, should be evacuated to Sichuan province. Ships which were incapable for the evacuation should be scuttled by their owners after machines removed...

"...44 ships that belong to the provincial and private companies in Hubei province were sunk by Japanes aircrafts during the evacuation, 15 were scuttled by owners, 68 were captured, 20 were confiscated and scuttled. Among these 147 ships, there were 83 steam ships, 8 barges, 16 pontoons.

"...CMSNC (China Merchants' Steam Navigation Company, the largest state-run shipping company in China) lost 8 ships (13500 tons) due to Japanes air raids. Merchant ship Hai Rui (Hai Jui), barge Zhaoshang I, and pontoons Hankow I, II, III (?? I suppose Japanese raised them) were captured by Japanese in Yichang. One pontoon was captured in Shashi. Minsheng company, the largest private shipping company, lost 12 merchant ships during the evacuation, which worth 149 millong Yuan."

best regards.

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Post by Jerry Asher » 27 Jan 2007 03:14

Hi Edward and Windward:
Edward I mentioned in response to your first inquiry that Chinese MTB's were active on the Yangzi--some details-- on night of July 14th, 1938 # 93 attacked IJN anchorge at Hukou( east of Poyang Lake) and on the night of the 17th # 93 and 223 tried again.

During 1938, I have the Funing, Chengning and Suning at Fouzhou and engaged by IJN, and near Guangzhou the Shaoho and Haichou also in combat.

Windward-I appreciate your effort and you must be busy. If possible could I prevail on you further. You mentioned Shandong Province efforts in late 1937 and early 1938. I have four ships disarmed and scuttled at Qingdao, Chenhai, Kiangli, Tungan and Yunghsiang and some field fortifications built near Yantai, and some damage to the port area. Was not aware of additional ships at Qingdao or the four ships at Weihai,(Isn't Liougondao the island at Weihai?)

The Japanese Force sent to Lianyungang in May 1938 included repair ships to remove sunken Chinese ships.

Irksome had been my inability to pinpoint Japanese destroyers at Daku on July 27th through 30, 1937, and the transports for the SNLF that arrived at Shanghai on Aug 11th. Only a guess but the 10th DesDiv comes to mind as a candidate for Daku, although there are other possibilities. Japanese navall deployments in the Bo Hai in August 1937 are massive.

Edward L. Hsiao
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Now we are getting somewhere!

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 30 Jan 2007 06:50

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for the information and the pictures that you provided about the Chinese Nationalist Navy during the late 1930's. Seems to me that the most effective way the Chinese Navy can definately do plenty of damage to the Japanese merchant fleet was the navy's minelaying activities.

Sincerely,

Edward :wink:

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Windward
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Post by Windward » 01 Feb 2007 09:45

scuttled ships in Huangpu River, Photo Courtesy of Shanghai Library
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Post by Windward » 01 Feb 2007 09:46

IJN Izumo
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nuyt
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Post by nuyt » 02 Feb 2007 20:27

Dear all,

I have just discovered this discussion and it is very interesting!

What I am looking for is information on the armamemnt of the Chinese Navy fleet in the 1930s especially those guns bought from HIH in the Netherlands. This company delivered at least one 15cm gun for Yat Sen and a number of 75mm L40 AA guns.
I am speculating which vessels may have received HIH guns (also named HIH Siderius after 1930): http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... Naval+guns
Any information is highly appreciated!

Kind regards,
Nuyt

PS did the salvage workers find any old guns?

Jerry Asher
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Post by Jerry Asher » 03 Feb 2007 01:49

Good afternoon everyone, and many thanks for sharing your enthusiasm.

Nujt: Sorry I have nothing to contribute; but found the details fascinating.

Windward: my compliments for unearthing the photographs of the Huangpu block, a wonderful posting.--Please accept my humble apologies for asking about finacial contributor--I apologize--ought not to have bothered you with that. Best wishes with your magazine--years ago I did a book on Israel-Syrian war of 1973--"Duel for the Golan" --if at some point you thnk I may be of assistance, please feel free to contact me.--will be working in the future on the cites you mentioned in Chinese( not for the next two months--but in the future) with a person who can read Chinese for me.

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Windward
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Post by Windward » 03 Feb 2007 13:58

nuyt wrote:Dear all,
PS did the salvage workers find any old guns?


well, according to Chinese resources, some available guns were removed from the warships before they were scuttled, and Japanese raised some. You know the scuttle work was in a hurry and there was no enough time to remove all guns, for example, cruiser Hai Rong's gun remove began on midmorning Sep 25, no more than ten hours before her scuttle. Her four 105mm guns and fore 150mm Krupp gun were removed, but her aft 150mm gun stayed onboard, same were Hai Chi's 203mm main guns.

The salvage work of cruisers in 1959 only found and raised their hulks, no armaments were mentioned. BTW, some boilers and steam engines of the four cruisers were raised too. Communist government first planned to install these boilers and engines in the hulk of salvaged cruiser Chungking (ex HMS Aurora), and convert her into PRC's first salvage ship, but this plan was laid up soon, these boilers and engines were transfered to local factories, some of them retired in 2003.

I'll keep looking for the Dutch gun information for you.

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