Actions of the Chinese Nationalist Navy

Discussions on all aspects of China, from the beginning of the First Sino-Japanese War till the end of the Chinese Civil War. Hosted by YC Chen.
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Windward
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Post by Windward » 13 Feb 2007 13:02

dear Jerry,

on the top of this page, you can see several buttons, such as "FAQ", "Search", "Memberlist", "Profile", "You have (?) new messages" and "Log out [ (your user name) ]", press "You have (?) new messages" button to check your pm.

best regards

Jerry Asher
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Post by Jerry Asher » 14 Feb 2007 04:11

Warmest regards Windward:

Thank you for your efforts to bring me along. My buttons indicate I have no new messages and I can't even get to my old ones. On the one hand I'm closer, on the other hand I'm not there yet.

I defer to your records--I do have a Japanese citation that Kamome struck a mine between July 6- 9th; which is in conflict of Wen 93 success.

Your efforts are establishing a whole new understanding of the naval side of the "War of Resistance."

Let me slow down or speed up and pose several questions.

Does anyone have an order of battle and or a list of the transports for the 10th Army for the Hangzhou landings of early Nov. 1937?
I have a citation that a Royal Navy destroyer came across one element ot the invasion fleet--but its name is not recorded.
Japanese CL Sendai, and DD's Shigure, Shiratsu, Yudachi, Harusame, and Marusame were part of the bombardment group. Yugure and Ariake for a time were detached to shoot up (and I assume) sink junk flotillas--but no other details.

What ships carrried the 16th Division to its landing site on Nov. 13th?

For the advance upriver from Shanghai to Nanjing I have three separate minesweeping groups, 1st #'s 1-6, 2nd --8 AuxAMS, 3rd--6 AuxAMs; are these organic IJN minegroups or just a temporary designation. There is a reference to a Take, or Take Maru, if Take possible destroyer disarmed in 1939. Most of the 3rd Kantai is involved in moving upriver; including Force 11--gunboats and the ODD's, later there are additional ships.

Jerry Asher
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Post by Jerry Asher » 26 Feb 2007 03:09

Just to complete sharing what records I have on passive Chinese river and coastal defenses.

Two of the ships utilized to built the Madang "underwater fortress," were the 3,098 ton Kiangyu and the 1,846 ton Hsinfung, both of China Merchants Steam Navigation Company. According to Dick and Kentwell, both ships were part of the initial steps taken in December 1937 to prepare this area for defense against any possible Japanese drive upriver. Japanese did work their way through and around this defense in late June 1938 as part of naval Operation "V" (See previous posting this thread by our member Windward for more in depth data).

Among the last Chinese controlled scuttlings for defensive purposes may have been of the Portugese flagged Junie, (Chinese Hsin Kiangteen) 3,645 ton; and Italian flagged Reno, (Chinese Chingan) 1,840 tons; I think these are the two ships referred to by Windward as being sunk at the mouth of the Yong River leading to Ningbo.
There is some probability that Reno was scuttled on the initiative of an Italian captain
who felt vulnerable to British Royal Navy ships based at Hong Kong. Although by this time, most RN ships had been withdrawn, even if Italy was just entering the war.

If anyone could fill in any of the missing pieces, please feel free. I have a citation that at Haichow (Hainan Island) six ships of 1,979 tons were scuttled.

Dongting Lakes area in China is my new focus.

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asiaticus
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Post by asiaticus » 26 Feb 2007 08:41

Map of the Chinese water, and rail communications circa 1935.

http://map.huhai.net/82-83.jpg

It helps explain the path the Japanese offensives took in most cases. Note the rivers are marked as to how far up the rivers the large steamship or small steamship traffic could go on them. Icheng on the Yangtze,, Changsha and Nanchang on their southern tributaries for the large ones. Yellow River was a bust except in the Suiyuan area. I didnt realize the smaller steamships could run from Henyang, Guilin, Wuchow to Nanning, to the French railhead at Lungchow, That explains why the Japanese wanted to take and hold the Lungchow-Nanning area of Guanxi so badly before the fall of France.

sjchan
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Post by sjchan » 08 May 2007 15:05

Found this map of the sunk ships at Kiangyin

From Tu shuo Zhongguo hai jun shi : gu dai-1955 by Chen Zhenshou, 2002. "Pictoral History of the Chinese Navy : Ancient times to 1955" Vol. 3.

cruisers (sloops):
Datong/大同 (2)
Ziqiang/自强 (9)

training ship:
Tongji/通济 (1)

seaplane tender:
Weisheng/威胜 (23)
Desheng/德胜 (22)

gunboat:
Wusheng/武胜 (24)

torpedo boat:
Chen/辰 (27)
Su/宿 (28)

merchant ships:
Jiahe/嘉禾 (8)
Xinming/新铭 (3)
Tonghua/同华 (1)
Yushun/遇顺 (21)
Taishun/泰顺 (5)
Guangli/广利 (25)
Xingshi/醒狮 (12)
Huaxin/华新 (6)
Huai'an/迴安 (14)
Tongli/通利 (11)
Ningjing/宁静 (20)
Kunxing/鲲兴 (13)
Xin Ping'an/新平安 (4)
Maoli II/茂利二号 (19)
Yuanchang/源长 (16)
Muyou/母佑 (7)
Huafu/华富 (26)
Dalong/大篢 (17)
Tonghe/通和 (15)
Ruikang/瑞康 (18)
Gongping/公平 (30)
Wanzai/万宰 (31)
Yongji/泳吉 (29)

pontoons

吉安(32)
安(33)
安(34)
安(35)
泰安(36)
(37)
德安(38)
(39)

.
Hai Chi / 海圻 (41)
Hai Rong / 海容 (43)
Hai Chou / 海筹 (40)
Hai Chen / 海琛 (42)
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Jerry Asher
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Post by Jerry Asher » 10 May 2007 04:51

Many thanks SJ

A wonderful--after all these years --a visual that brings clarity

Well done and thank you again. Jerry Asher

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Post by sjchan » 11 May 2007 14:11

Here's another diagram from the same source regarding the blocks at the mouth of River Min. It was finished in 1939 after more than 2 years and 4 months.

Legend for the diagram

(1) 12 steamers and 35 large junks filled with sand and rock
(2) Stone blocks (55 pcs) each with diameter of 16.7 m and spaced 33 meters apart
(3) Stone blocks (14 pcs) each with diameter of 1.7 m
(4) Stone blocks (92 pcs) each 5.3 meters above low watermark
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sjchan
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Post by sjchan » 02 Jun 2007 17:12

Hi Jerry,

Noted that you are interested in Chinese ships in the Huangpu block. Here is information on some of the missing Chinese ships.

The following ships from the Shanghai City Police Department Naval Patrol Squadron were used in the block: the merchant ships富陽, 中興, 三江, 福興, 新華安, 平濟, 利平, 中和, 壽昌, 中華漁; the iron barges民生2, 民生6, 民生8, 民生9. (p. 398 of Zhonghua Minguo hai jun tong shi, "A History of the Navy of the Republic of China" 1993).

I think by now you have a diagram of the exact location of the 3 blockage lines in the Huangpu block (it's in Chen Zhenshou's Pictoral History of the Chinese Navy : Ancient times to 1955" Vol. 3)

Jerry Asher
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Post by Jerry Asher » 10 Jul 2007 02:04

A heartfelt thank you to our members Windward and SJChan. They have added so much to our ability to undertand parts of the Sino Japanense War.

To continue sharing:Photo posted Feb 1, by Windward of Huangpu blockade line on our page 2 would seem to be of the 3rd (Southernmost) line and is of the Japanese ships requisitioned and scuttled.--I say this because 1st line is of eight ships and the 2nd line involves just one large ship, the Chinese Navy transport Puan.

The Royal Navy destroyer that intercepted Japanese naval ops slated for Hanghzhou Bay may have been the HMS Decoy. The account I have matches Japanese deiscriptions but dates do not match. See entry onPage 4.

Perhaps beating a dead horse, but my maps of Guangzhou estuary does not allow me to be as precise as I would like as to the Madaomen, Hengmen and Yamen watercourses and Tanzhou town.

Am continuing to work on translating Chinese and Japanese stuff on the Sino Japanese War. Please feel free to share, raise questions, etc.

Have a nice day all.

sjchan
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Post by sjchan » 10 Jul 2007 06:04

Even the map at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/chin ... nf49-8.jpg is not good enough, or is there anything special that you are looking for?

Incidentally, according to Chen Zhenshou, 2002. "Pictoral History of the Chinese Navy : Ancient times to 1955" Vol. 3. p. 791 the only surface action between KMT navy and IJN in the entire Sino Japanese War (i.e. ignoring raids by Chinese torpedo boats in which there were basically no gun battle) occured on Sep 14, 1937 between 4 Japanese ships and the Chinese light cruiser 肇和 and the gunboat 海周 near Humen; it was claimed that one of the Japanese ships were damaged; 海周 was also hit with a number of casualties. Is this description accurate based on Japanese records, and what are the names of the 4 ships?

sjchan
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Post by sjchan » 10 Jul 2007 06:06

Even the map at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/chin ... nf49-8.jpg is not good enough, or is there anything special that you are looking for?

Incidentally, according to Chen Zhenshou, 2002. "Pictoral History of the Chinese Navy : Ancient times to 1955" Vol. 3. p. 791 the only surface action between KMT navy and IJN in the entire Sino Japanese War (i.e. ignoring raids by Chinese torpedo boats in which there were basically no gun battle) occured on Sep 14, 1937 between 4 Japanese ships and the Chinese light cruiser 肇和 and the gunboat 海周 near Humen; it was claimed that one of the Japanese ships were damaged; 海周 was also hit with a number of casualties. Is this description accurate based on Japanese records, and what are the names of the 4 ships?

Jerry Asher
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Post by Jerry Asher » 11 Jul 2007 04:25

Hi SJ
Japanese accounts yielded only three ships participating in the Sept 14th, 1937 naval attack near Guangzhou. I have the light cruiser Yubari and the destroyers Hayate and Oite at Guangzhou. But nothing on a reported effort at the same time at Xiamen (amoy). Perhaps a third destroyer was sent there but nothing noteworthy occurred? Anyone? Damage claim, if accuarte did not result in any down time for the Japanese ships.

Warmest regards to all.

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Post by sjchan » 06 Aug 2007 16:45

Found an eye-witness account of this surface action and its aftermath; it was written by an officer on board the 海周. Here is a summary.

Some time during August (note: probably got the date wrong), the ships were attacked by some aircrafts. The gunners fired at the planes with everything they had, include hand-held machine guns. Later it was found out that these were Chinese planes which had just been moved from Nanking; fortunately there were no losses.

The two Chinese ships were making nightly patrols, with the海周 leading. Since the path taken was very predictable, they were ambushed by three Japanese vessels as they left Fort Ta Chiao. Fire was returned immediately but the 海周 was hit three times, causing the ship to lose steering control and move directly towards the Japanese. Everyone thought the ship was making a brave move! The 肇和 did not resist strongly even though it was far better armed. Fort Humen did try to provide support but its guns were antiquated. In the nick of time some Chinese planes arrived and the three Japanese ships withdrew. Afterwards the captain of the肇和 was court-martialed and shot. The海周 was towed back to see what could be done; meanwhile its main guns were taken away and installed at Fort Humen and manned by the sailors from海周.

The Japanese apparently thought that the 海周 was still battle-worthy and launched air attacks on it repeatedly. Since there was no effective anti-aircraft defense, the ship was eventually hit again and holed. Although it was possible to save the ship, the local inhabitants pleaded with the crew not to do so in order to spare them from more Japanese air attacks. Eventually approval was given since the ship was no longer sea-worthy.

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Windward
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Post by Windward » 07 Aug 2007 20:39

hi sj,

you can check this article. It mentioned two naval battles in Humen. The forth Japanese ship, as mentioned in this article, might be transport ship 甘丸 (Ama Maru?)


regards

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Windward
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Post by Windward » 07 Aug 2007 20:54

two Chinese navy commanders: Chen Shaokuan, minister of navy, and Chen Tse, commander of Cantonese Navy
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