Red Mole Triggers China-Japan War?

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Peter H
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Red Mole Triggers China-Japan War?

Post by Peter H » 29 Jul 2005 15:28

The title of Chapter 19 from Jung Chang's Mao book.

Can any credence be given to Chang's findings below?

After the Marco Polo Bridge Incident,"Japan did not aim to extend the fighting beyond northern China".

And:
Japan's swift occupation of northern China in July posed a direct danger to Stalin.Tokyo's huge armies were now in a position to turn north and attack Russia anywhere along a border many thousands of kilometres long.The year before,Stalin had publicly identified Japan as the principal menace.Now,it seems,he activated a long-term Communist agent in the heart of the Nationalist Army and detonated a full-scale war in Shanghai,which drew the Japanese inextricably into the vast heartland of China---and away from China.
page 208

The 'mole' was one Zhang Zhi-zhong,commander of the Shanghai-Nanking garrison.Known as the 'Red teacher' at the Whampoa Military Academy,Zhang asked to join the CCP but was told by Chou En-Lai to stay in the Nationalists as a sleeper.

Zhang is credited with triggerring the Oyama Incident 1937 which Chang infers was authorised via the Soviet embassy.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=82234
...ZZZ staged an incident outside Shanghai airport,where a Chinese army unit,which he imself specially stationed there,shot dead a Japanese marine lieutenant and a private.A Chinese prisoner under sentence of death was then dressed in Chinese uniform and shot dead at the airport gate,to make it seemed the Japanese had fired first.
Zhang then commenced the Shanghai fighting,including an air attack on the Japanese flagship Izumo,and issued false press reports that the Japanese had attacked first.An all-out war commenced in China.
Moscow was exhilarated by the turn of events,as the Soviet foreign minister,Maksim Litvinov,admitted to French vice-premier Leon Blum.According to Blum,Litvinov told him that 'he and the Soviet Union were perfectly delighted that Japan had attacked China[adding]that the Soviet Union hoped the war between China and Japan would continue just as long as possible..."

This was probably one of Stalin's greatest coup.With just one sleeper he warded off the Japanese threat to Soviet Russia.Both of the Russians who dealt with ZZZ,the military attache Lepin and Ambassador Bogomolov,were immediately recalled and executed.

ZZZ was quickly forced to resign,in September,by an angry Chiang...[but] stayed with the Communists when the Nationalists fled to Taiwan in 1949.
ZZZ can agruably be considered the most important agent of all time.Most agents just passed on information.ZZZ quite possibly altered the course of history virtually single-handedly.

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 29 Jul 2005 15:35

The General Zhang Zhi-zhong of Shanghai should not be confused with the commander of the 33rd Army Group with the same name:

http://english.chinamil.com.cn/site2/ne ... 253639.htm

mars
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Post by mars » 29 Jul 2005 17:17

everybody, please just ignore Jung Chang's book, she is not a historian, and her book is simply trash

Karl
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Post by Karl » 29 Jul 2005 17:31

Well spot the commie.

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Post by kutuzov » 30 Jul 2005 04:14

Peter H wrote:The General Zhang Zhi-zhong of Shanghai should not be confused with the commander of the 33rd Army Group with the same name:

http://english.chinamil.com.cn/site2/ne ... 253639.htm
Not really,slightly different.One is Zhang zhizhong while the other is Zhang zizhong.

Never heard of anything to prove the author's description.
I personally think there's no possibility of that.To invade Shanghai was not a bad idea to threaten China's then capital Nanjing and it's not reasonable to leave a whole China behind and turn back for Russia.

Discussion is not about flaming,nor spoting the commie,mars can be more of an expert than us all.

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Post by Karl » 30 Jul 2005 04:55

A bonafide Maoist then. I didn't realize they still excisted in China.

[Yes it sounds like a strange claim but instead of trashing an entire book, why doesn't he enlighten us with some of his objective, expert knowledge. That would certainly be more appreciated then a short toilet brush rant...regards.]

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Post by mars » 30 Jul 2005 14:56

Karl, think a book about Mao did a very bad research did not make one a so-called "Maoist",I can not believe someone could be so narrow-mind ! Zhang's book is even worse than that, she did NO acadamic research ! and if I want to point out what part of Zhang's book was incorrect, that would be a long long list, it would be much easier if I coose to point which part in her book are correct, so why do I want to waste my time ? There were many much better books about china and Mao written by Westerner out there, and Zhang's book could go directly to trash can which is where it belongs

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Post by mars » 30 Jul 2005 15:05

and there is an extra tip, if you want to know anything about modern chinese history, read those books wrote by Westerners, or if you could read chinese, read those wrote by chinese in chinese, but DO NOT read those book wrote by chinese but writes in foreign language, most of, say 90%, latter books are pure trash.

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 30 Jul 2005 15:36

Chung wrote the narrative,her husband and co-author the historian Jon Halliday did the research.

Footnotes mainly from Chinese sources and historians(Liu Jinchi,Shi Shuo,Dong Kunwu) are extensive.

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Post by mars » 31 Jul 2005 04:33

Peter H wrote:Chung wrote the narrative,her husband and co-author the historian Jon Halliday did the research.

Footnotes mainly from Chinese sources and historians(Liu Jinchi,Shi Shuo,Dong Kunwu) are extensive.
Peter, Peter, why could I say ?

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Leonard
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Post by Leonard » 18 Aug 2005 22:27

I have nothing to confirm or deny ZZZ being a mole. But he certainly is at least very sympathetic to the communist.

let's see this:

1. During his tenure in the Whampoa Military Academy, he is known as the "Red Teacher" and one of the "4 villains of Whampoa (with 3 other CCP members)" by the students. He was very close to Zhou Enlai and other CCP members in the academy and is seen as a lefist.

2. ZZZ started the Changsha fire that badly damaged KMT reputation in 1937.

3. He has always refuse to fight any battle against the communist, before or after the war of resistance, even under Chiang's direct order. Why would Chiang want to keep him around?

4. If he had been a communist mole, Chiang certainly knows it, and use him as a mean of communicating with the CCP. ZZZ is involved in the negotiation with CCP a number of times after the N4A Incident.

5. Mao was accompanied by ZZZ to Chungking to meet Chiang after the war. Mao must have 100% confident with ZZZ.

6. ZZZ was expeled by the KMT only after he fails many times to negotiate a peaceful settlement with the CCP in 1949, he defected to the communist at once, and work in important positions of the red government until he dies in 1969.

My opinion: It doesn't matter whether he is a red mole or not. Just look at what he did and make the conclusion yourself. He also never deny his close relation with the communist.

I want to point out it is very unlikely that Hu Tsung Nan is a red mole himslef (as claimed by Jung Chang). It is widely believed (by historian) that there are many red moles in his HQ though. Hu has been loyal to Chiang until he dies, but he is not a very smart man, nor a good general.

On the other hand, historian on both Taiwan and China have almost 100% confirmed that Wei Li Huang is a red mole.

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Post by mars » 19 Aug 2005 23:27

Fubbik wrote:"On the other hand, historian on both Taiwan and China have almost 100% confirmed that Wei Li Huang is a red mole."
Say Who ? What "historian" ?
Fubbik wrote:"1. During his tenure in the Whampoa Military Academy, he is known as the "Red Teacher" and one of the "4 villains of Whampoa (with 3 other CCP members)" by the students. He was very close to Zhou Enlai and other CCP members in the academy and is seen as a lefist. "
in the early 20's, Many CCP and KMT member were friends, some even holded the membership of both party, after the bloody split up in 1927, some ex-Communist went to KMT side, and some ex-KMT members joined Communist, so what is your point, remember, that was a civil war, which means Friends fought Friends, Brother against brother, No one called Gen Robert Lee was a "Yankee mole" because he was a high rank Army officer before the war and was a friend with Gen Scott.
Fubbik wrote:2. ZZZ started the Changsha fire that badly damaged KMT reputation in 1937.
You should know (if not, why should I waste my time to discuss with you ) KMT had a plan to destroy Changsha in the case the city was about to fall into Japanese at that time, Zhang just made a bad judgement about timming
Fubbik wrote:3. He has always refuse to fight any battle against the communist, before or after the war of resistance, even under Chiang's direct order. Why would Chiang want to keep him around?
are you kiding ? after the Changsha fire incidence, Zhang was never trusted a important military position, he NEVER fought anybody after 1937, not a surprise for his bad performance in the battle of Shanghai and the Changsha fire incidence
Fubbik wrote:4. If he had been a communist mole, Chiang certainly knows it, and use him as a mean of communicating with the CCP. ZZZ is involved in the negotiation with CCP a number of times after the N4A Incident.
Do that means every diplomat could be suspect as a traitor ?
Fubbik wrote:Mao was accompanied by ZZZ to Chungking to meet Chiang after the war. Mao must have 100% confident with ZZZ.
Yes, in the Chungking negeotion, Chiang's chief of Secret Police Da Li did his utterly most to pretect the safety of Mao, so Da Li must be a red mole too.
Fubbik wrote:6. ZZZ was expeled by the KMT only after he fails many times to negotiate a peaceful settlement with the CCP in 1949, he defected to the communist at once, and work in important positions of the red government until he dies in 1969.
You know when a ship started sunk, many rats would run overboard, Zhang was just one of those rats, and by the way, in 1949, the result of the so-call peacefull settlement was a treaty which was almost equal to unconditional surrender of KMT, KMT government refused, justfily, to signed it , only after this, seeing every hope was lost, then Zhang defected to Communist, and only after that he was expelled by the KMT. And Zhang was far from the most senior KMT high rank official who defected to Communist at 1150 clock
Last edited by mars on 19 Aug 2005 23:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mars » 19 Aug 2005 23:37

I actually am very surprise so many people do not know this simple fact, the war between China and Japan broke out on July 7 1937, and the so-call "Shanghai incidence" occured on Aug 13 1937, the war in the North part of China had already be more than one month old. and if some one bother himself to check the record of the KMT, he should already find out that it was KMT had a plan to attach Japanese garrison in Shanghai in the case of the war broke out between this two conturies, what Zhang did was simply following his government's order, what communist's conspiracy ?

Why should we treat this "book" so seriously ?

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Post by Peter H » 20 Aug 2005 06:40

ZZZs memoirs state that in 1925 "I wanted to join the CCP,and told Chou En-lai".Chou told him to stay in the Nationalists in a covert role for the CCP.

ZZZ at the time of the Marco Polo Bridge Incident suggested a 'first strike' against the Japanese at Shanghai.Chiang did not respond.

In Chiang's view,according to Chang:

-the fighting was in the north,a 1,000 kms away

-Shanghai was the industrial and financial heart of China,an international showpiece and metropolis

-the small Japanese garrison there was inactive

-it was close to his capital Nanking

-both sides did not want a full scale war at the time:even in the northern fighting Chiang had not sent a single Chinese Air Force plane to that front

Whatever the truth Chang's main thesis is that Stalin pulled the strings and cynically sparked an all out war between China and Japan.The CCP had no say in the matter....ZZZ was a Soviet Red Mole.

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Post by mars » 20 Aug 2005 07:22

my dear peter, this would be my last response to this particular post, so that I try my best to explain something to you, if you still have so much confidence to that trash book, I would respect your opnion, but I would not waste my time anymore

1. in 1925, it was the honeymoon between CCP and KMT, to show the allegiance between these two partys, high official of CCP and KMT had deal to allow their member to have the membership of both party, and say "Zhang wanted to stay in KMT to do cover mission for CCP" was a LIE
2. after the breif war between China and Japane in 1932 in Shanghai, Chinese regular amry units was not allowed to stay in the Shanghai city and her vicinity, only some militia and police units were in Shanghai in 1937, and at the same time, there were around 6000 Japanes troops in Shanghai. Even before the war broke out, inside KMT government, there was a discussing about
what should do when war broke out, becuase Japanese had vastly advanced weapon than China and her army was far better trained, so rather fought Japanese in the Northern China which was mostly consist of plain and was easy for the maneuver by Modern Japanese army, we should fight them at the middle-eastern part of China: Shanghai area, the reason was there were many rivers in that area, so it would be much easy to defense, and Western countries had large amount of investment in this area, to lure Japanese army to this area, there would be hope to get more support from Wester countries.
As I mentioned when the war broke out, there were only a few militia units in Shanghai, thing soon changed, 2 of the best Chinese divisions, the 87th and 88th were disguised as militia units, and secrectly sent to Shanghai,these two divisions were directly controlled by Chiang, without Chiang's approve, ZZZ could not even move a platoon from these 2 divisions soon after that the war broke out in Shanghai.
3 I mentioned before and here I mentione again, when ZZZ attacked Japanes in Shanghai on Aug 13, the all-out war between China and Japan was ALREADY more than one month old

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