Photos of the Shanghai fighting 1937

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Leonard
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Post by Leonard » 26 Nov 2005 10:16

Although it may not be possible to navigate into Yangtze River, I always wonder why the IJN never involve any battleship like Kongo or Hiei in China, even before Pearl Harbor. They could have at least help in the bombardment of Shanghai or Canton. What are those ships doing while the army is fighting in China?

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asiaticus
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Post by asiaticus » 27 Nov 2005 11:45

It might be that the battleships at that time didnt carry ammunition for the guns useful for shore bombardment but were equipped only with armour peircing shells. Battleships were ment to defeat other battleships primarily before aircraft carriers became the big battle winners.

IIRC the USA used their battleships for shore bombardment in the Phillipines and carried special ammo for the task but were short on armour peircing shells when they had to engage the Japanese at Suragao and elswhere.

rebel
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Post by rebel » 10 Dec 2005 11:37

The battle between chinese and japanese in shanghai 1937 is called "Songhu battle"in china.
It is known to all that the chinese army hardly possessed any navy or airforce,so the japanese announced that they will occupy shanghai in 3 days and the whole china in 3 months.
At that time,shanghai was the most important economic center in china,and if japanese occupy this city successfully,it will be very easy to attack Nanjing,then capital of china through changjiang river.
The most famous heros in this army is the 19'th corps.About 800 soldiers was in charge of the defence of "sihang warehouse",and what they are facing is thousands of japanese soldiers and bombers.They defended hard there serveral days.At last they retreat on 30/12/1937.

rebel
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Post by rebel » 10 Dec 2005 11:39

probably my English is inferior...

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asiaticus
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Post by asiaticus » 10 Dec 2005 20:28

I think the 19th Corps was in the 1st Battle of Shanghai in 1932. The warehouse defenders were with one of the German trained divisions IIRC.

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 14 Dec 2005 00:40

Thanks for the map asiaticus.

A reference I have gives Japanese losses in the Shanghai campaign as around 10,000 killed,40,000 wounded.

Can anyone confirm this?

Miborovsky
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Post by Miborovsky » 15 Dec 2005 02:12

I believe the casualty count was 70,000 killed and wounded on the Japanese side vs 200,000 killed and wounded on the Chinese side.

The German trained divisions involved. Those that I know for certain are the 36th, 87th and 88th. I think others might have been involved but these 3 are the best of the NRA at the time. Local police forces were also involved. Surprisingly, they were very often better trained and equipped than the average Chinese division at the time. Shanghai was demilitarised as per the 1932 treaty imposed by Japan after the 1932 invasion of China. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shanghai_(1932)) The 19th Route Army and 5th Army defended Shanghai in 1932, and the 87th and 88th were ALSO involved in the 1932 battle...

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asiaticus
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Losses at Shanghai, from Wilson

Post by asiaticus » 19 Dec 2005 19:54

Casualty estimate from an American military attache in Shanghai quoted in Wilson's When Tigers Fight:

over 100,000men of a force of 300,000men most of these from their new reorganized divisions and especially the Germman trained ones. Espeicially bad was the loss of the modern trained officers and NCOs.

Japanese losses estimated as 60,000men by the Chinese, the American estimated less tnan 40,000men of a 90,000man force.

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asiaticus
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oob of forces in Shanghai incident 1932

Post by asiaticus » 19 Dec 2005 20:15

Forces in Shanghai Incident 1932

Japan

Kurume Naval Infantry Brigade Jan 32
- 2nd Independent Tank Company
--5 Type 89 Medium Tanks,
--10 Renault NC27s
- Yokosuka 1st SNLF
- ? other SNLF units?
SNLF brigade landed at Shanghai in Jan 32 numbered about 2,000 and was equipped with armored cars and field guns.

9th Divivision February 32
-6th Infantry Brigade
--7th Infantry Regiment
--35th Infantry Regiment
-18th Infantry Brigade
--19th Infantry Regiment
--36th Infantry Regiment
-9th Mountain Artillery Regiment
- 9th Cavalry Regiment
- 9th Engineer Regiment
- 9th Transport Regiment

two more Japanese divisions arrived in the weeks that followed:
?
?


China
30,000 Chinese

OB of the KMT units on the Shanghai Front:
19th Route Army
-60th division
-61th division
-78th division

5th Army
-87th division
-88th division
- Teaching Unit


Shanghai Volunteer Corps
White Russian Battalion
'A' Company (British)
'B' Company (Eurasians)
'C' Company (Chinese)
Scottish Company
American Troop (Mounted)

The Shanghai Volunteer Corps was formed to protect the foreign settlements from the wars and disorder which swirled around Shanghai almost from its earliest days. In Shanghai in 1932, the unit had 1,525 men, with the ranks growing to 2,300 at the height of the crisis. The Volunteers guarded the entry points to the Settlements and kept the Japanese at bay until re-inforcements arrived from Britain and elsewhere.

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Stuka Pilot
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Post by Stuka Pilot » 01 Jan 2006 03:47

I live in Shnghai and i'd like to show some photos about taht:
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All these photos are from China domestic sites

Historic information and documents:http://shkz.china1840-1949.net.cn/web/ziliao-1.htm

Photo gallery:http://shkz.china1840-1949.net.cn/web/tupian-1.htm

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 12 Jul 2006 10:36

A Chinese source speaks of the Seeckt Line,a defensive system of blockhouses etc set up at Shanghai under the guidance of the German Hans von Seeckt 1934-1935.Did such a fortification line exist?

Gerrie_Coetzee
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Post by Gerrie_Coetzee » 13 Jul 2006 14:20

Image

It looks like the third Chinese soldier is equipped with a flame thrower, some of the elite units of Chiangs army had flamethrowers and modern weapons (Tanks, Heavy Machineguns) at their disposal.

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Windward
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Post by Windward » 14 Aug 2006 11:05

Leonard wrote:Best Ship? I never heard a single Japanese battleship in action in Shanghai


how about carriers? :wink:

IJN's two best battleships, Nagato and Mutsu, did take part in the Shanghai campaign. When Marco Polo Bridge Incident broke out on July 7 1937, Nagato and Mutsu were operating near Ise Bay. Nagato received the order of sail to Komatsushima, Tokushima Prefecture, Shikoku (四国 徳島県 小松島), to carry around 2000 soldiers of the 11th division to Wusung in August. And Mutsu escorted a transport flotilla from Sasebo to Daku (near Tientsin), later she went to Mitsuhama, Ehime Prefecture, Shikoku (愛媛県 三津浜) to carry another 2000 soldiers of the 11th division to Shanghai.


http://hush.gooside.com/name/m/Mutsu/Mutsu.html
37.7/7連合艦隊旗艦として伊勢湾寄航中、盧溝橋事件の発生により呉回航
8/11佐世保出港後華北に向かう輸送船団を護衛、朝鮮西方海面を行動
/15佐世保帰投
/20愛媛県三津浜港より第11師団の一部約2000が乗艦
/23上海沖に到着し部隊を揚陸
/24搭載機が上海方面の陸戦に協力
/25佐世保帰投
9/15佐世保出港後華北方面の警戒に従事

(IJN Mutsu)
7.7.1937: flagship of the Combined Fleet. Sailing on Ise Bay, return to Kure after the Marco Polo Bridge Incident broke out
8.11.1937: depart from Sasebo, sail to western Korean coast as escort force of a transport flotilla to Northern China
8.15.1937: returen to Sasebo
8.20.1937: 2000 soldiers of the 11th division onboard Mutsu in Mitsuhama
8.23.1937: arrived at Shanghai coast. Soldiers were transfered to small boats to landing
8.24.1937: seaplanes of Mutsu took part in the battles in Shanghai
8.25.1937: return to Sasebo
9.15.1937: depart from Sasebo to North China coast


http://hush.gooside.com/name/n/Nagato/Nagato.html

37.8/20陸軍第11師団の一部約2000名を乗せて出港
/25佐世保帰投

(IJN Nagato)
8.20.1937: depart (from Komatsushima) with 2000 soldiers of the 11th division
8.25.1937: return to Sasebo


best regards

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 14 Aug 2006 14:10

Photos from Corbis
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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 14 Aug 2006 14:12

Photos from ullstein
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