The Sino-Japanese War(Campaigns in detail)

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asiaticus
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RE: Tank Detachments

Post by asiaticus » 14 Mar 2006 10:04

Wow, Taki. Thats interesting, a pretty balanced armoured force.

1st Battalion/14th Infantry Regiment


My understanding was this Regiment was with 25th Division which was never deployed in China itself but in Manchuria. Was this an independant Regiment at the time or another unit lent from Kwangtung Army?

17th Independent Tankette Company
A part of 1st Independent Engineer Company
One Independent Motorcar Company


Were these units directly under Central China Expeditionary Army? I havent seen any of these units in lists of units under that Army or its predicessors.

What was this Independent Motorcar Company, Armoured Cars or somethng else?


One platoon of 19th Mountain Gun Regiment


My info is that this Regiment was with 13th Division.


Imada Detachment was with 16th Division apparently. What were they doing? It looks like it was heading toward the same bridge as Iwanaka Detachment then turned west for some reason. Had the Chinese slipped away to the west by that time?

Any idea of the the units involved in Imada Detachment and Hosomi Detachment?

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Re: RE: Tank Detachments

Post by Akira Takizawa » 14 Mar 2006 11:22

> My understanding was this Regiment was with 25th Division which was never deployed in China itself but in Manchuria. Was this an independant Regiment at the time or another unit lent from Kwangtung Army?

Yah, it is a misprint. 104th Infantry Regiment is correct.

> Were these units directly under Central China Expeditionary Army?

Yes

> What was this Independent Motorcar Company, Armoured Cars or somethng else?

It is a transport unit of trucks.

> Imada Detachment was with 16th Division apparently. What were they doing?

They also destroyed the railway at three points.

> Any idea of the the units involved in Imada Detachment and Hosomi Detachment?

Imada Detachment
2nd Tank Battalion
1st Battalion of 9th Infantry Regiment
One mountain gun company
One engineer platoon
and others

5th Tank Regiment did not organize the detachment.

Taki

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Post by asiaticus » 14 Mar 2006 11:39

Yah, it is a misprint. 104th Infantry Regiment is correct.


Ok then it was also a detachment from 13th Division.


5th Tank Regiment did not organize the detachment.


Was it operating as a unit of the 3rd Division then?

Thanks for your replies.

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Post by Akira Takizawa » 14 Mar 2006 14:58

asiaticus wrote:
5th Tank Regiment did not organize the detachment.


Was it operating as a unit of the 3rd Division then?


Yes. It was attached to the 3rd Division and was in charge of infantry support.

Taki

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Use of 5th Tank Regiment with 3rd Division

Post by asiaticus » 15 Mar 2006 20:12

Was it operating as a unit of the 3rd Division then?


Yes. It was attached to the 3rd Division and was in charge of infantry support.

Taki


Interesting that 5th Tank Regiment was used in a different way than the other two. Do you know any details on how they were being used in with 3rd Division tactically? I read in the accounts of the use of the tanks in Nomonhan in Coox's book. I was wondering how they were used here in China a bit earlier.

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Japanese tanks in 1930s

Post by Akira Takizawa » 16 Mar 2006 02:41

In 1930s, Japanese doctrine was that the tank was used to support the infantry. It was usual that the tank regiment was divided and each tank company was attached to one infantry regiment. When the infantry attack the enemy position, enemy MG was a main threat. The artillery was used to suppress the enemy MG, but it could not bombard the enemy position once the infantry would approach within 100-150m to the enemy position, because the bombardment would hurt the friend infantry. The infantry had infantry guns to cover this range, but infantry gun was vulnerable to enemy fire and it lacked in mobility. The tank solved this problem. They advanced forward and bombarded enemy MGs and other heavy weapons so that the friend infantry could rush into enemy positions. I don't know the details of the fights of 5th Tank Battalion, but they would be used as mentioned.

Taki

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re: Japanese tanks in 1930s

Post by asiaticus » 18 Mar 2006 21:02

Thanks for the clarification.

I saw an article:
http://www.uglychinese.org/war.htm#Ichigo

It mentions the early part of the operations against Hsuchow :

Battle Of Mingguang
On Dec 12th 1937, Li Zongren assumed the post of commander for 5th military zone which was in charge of the segment of Pukou to Jinan along Jin-Pu Railway as well as the coastal defence line from Wusongkou mouth to Yellow River mouth in the north. Shortly after saying encouragement words to Tang Shengzhi who volunteered the defence of Nanking the capital, Li Zongren departed for Xuzhou's military district. Before Li Zongren arrived in Xuzhou, he already made arrangement for tactician Xu Zuyi set up command center. (Xu Zuyi, who previously served under Zhang Xueliang, was a graduate of Baoding Cadet as well as Japan's Infantry Cadet.) Under 5th military zone would be Liu Shiyi's 31st Corps [Guangxi native soldiers] which stationed in coastal Haizhou, two corps [12th & 55th] under Han Fuju's 3rd group army which stationed to the south of the Yellow River, Miao Zhengliu's 57th Corps which stationed in northern Jiangsu Prov, Han Deqing's 89th Corps which was converted from Jiangsu Province security forces, Yu Xuezhong's 51st Corps which stationed in coastal Qingdao, and five regiments under Pang Bingxun's 3rd corps-conglomerate which stationed in Dangshan. The above miscellaneous provincial armies amounted to 7 corps or 70000 to 80000 in number of soldiers. (Among miscellaneous provincial armies to serve under Li Zongren, Zhang Zizhong, Pang Bingxun, Sun Lianzhong, Liu Ruming & Sun Tongxuan belonged to Feng Yuxiang's Northwestern Army lineage, while Deng Xihou, Wang Zanxu & Yang Sen belonged to Sichuan Province armies. The rest would be Yu Xuezhong & Miao Zhengliu of Northeastern Army, and Xu Yuanquan of Zhi-Lu-jun Army. Sichuan Province armies, with such martyrs as Rao Guofeng & Wang Mingzhang, had sacrificed tremendously for the country during the resistance wars. )


In Dec 1937, Japanese launched a two prong attack at Xuzhou from south and north, along Jin-Pu Railroad and along Tai'er'zhuang-Weixian Highway. At Xuzhou, Li Zongren often rode his horse on the streets, which revived the spirits of civilians and merchants as well as exile students. Japanese, equivalent to 8 divisions, in mid-December, crossed the Yangtze for the north at Nanking, Zhenjiang & Wuhu. Along Jin-Pu Railway, Japanese encountered resistance from miscellanous provincial armies under the command of Li Zongren. Li Zongren promptly relocated 31st Corps to Mingguang & Tuzhou to stop 3 division equivalent Japanese from marching northward along the railway. Japanese, with troops several times more than 31st Corps, still failed to take over or close in to Mingguang after one month fighting.

In Dec, Japanese attacked Mingguang for sake of taking over Bengbu of Anhui Prov. At Mingguang, for well over one month, KMT 31st Corps defended the position against the Japanese who outnumbered Chinese several folds. Li Zongren personally trained 31st Corps per his memoirs.

Having encountered resistance, Japanese called over heavy artilleries and armoured vehicles from Nanking. On Jan 18th 1938, Li Zongren ordered that 31st Corps evacuated from Mingguang for a western move, while relocating Yu Xuezhong's 51st Corps to north bank of Huai-shui River from coastal Qingdao.

After hitting Mingguang empty, Japanese pushed on towards Dingyuan, Huaiyuan and Bengbu. Chinese stopped Japanese at the Huai-shui River. Meanwhile, 31st Corps attacked Japanese at the waist and cut them into segments. Japanese retreated from Huai-shui river bank and engaged in seasaw warfare with 31st Corps. Li Zongren ordered that 31st Corps engaged Japanese at a distance but kept sticked with each other. At this time, KMT 21st Group Army relocated over to Hefei of Anhui Province from Shanghai-Wusong battleground. Hence, Japanese dared not push north along Jin-Pu Railway and had to stop at the bank of Huai-shui River.


and in the North:


Han Fuju
Han Fuju tried to keep Shandong Province as his private domain by negotiating with Koiso Kuniaki & Nishio Toshizo for a compromise. Japanese demanded that Han Fuju declare independence. Li Zongren paid a visit to Jinan to strengthen Han Fuju's determination. Li Zongren assured Han Fuju by citing his forecasts about the wars in China and possible outbreak of wars in Europe as a corroboration that China would ultimately prevail over Japan in a world-wide war. After Li Zongren analyzed the conflict between two factions of Japanese militarists [i.e., southern move against Britain-US versus northern move against USSR], Han Fuju repeatedly asked Li Zongren, "Your honor, when do you think the European War might erupt?" Li Zongren claimed that his talk of sustained warfare could have strengthened Han Fuju's confidence but might have led to Han Fuju's narrow-minded belief that he should preserve his troops for a long time period.

The good outcome of talks between Japanese and Han Fuju would be Japan's abstaining from an attack at Shandong Prov. When Han Fuju refused to cooperate with Japan, Japanese army crossed the Yellow River at Qingcheng & Jiyang on Dec 23rd 1937. Japanese intruded into Jinan on 27th and Tai'an on 31st. Han Fuju, to preserve his troops, continued the retreat without putting up fight and abandoned Dawenkou on Jan 2nd 1938. Japanese intruded into Jining on Jan 5th. Li Zongren immediately ordered that Han Fuju retreat along Jin-Pu Railway and set up defence positions. However, Han Fuju fled towards western Shandong Province without reporting to Li Zongren. Along Jin-Pu Ralway, only small amounts of troops resisted Japanese, which somehow delayed the advance. In mid-Jan, Chiang Kai-shek assembled generals of 1st & 5th military zones for a meeting in Guide, arrested Han Fuju, and executed him in Wuchang without a trial. Han Fuju, as a precaution, had brought a whole regiment to the meeting.

Back on Jan 12th, Japanese 5th division-conglomerate under Seishiro landed in Laoshan-wan Bay and Fudao of Qingdao. After the relocation of Yu Xuezhong's army, mayor Shen Honglie had only 500 marines under his command. Itagaki Seishiro then marched westward to Weixian and then southward against Linyi via Gaomi, Zhucheng & Juxian.



I am curious if this account is acurate. Also what Japanese units were operating in the various columns of advance north of the Yangtze and south of the Yellow River in this early period. My Chinese history book is kind of vague here too.

My understanding is that on February 14, 1938 the Japanese had a big reorgainzation the Central China army was formed out of 10th Army and the Shanghai Expedionary Force. North China army was reorganized Mar. 30 1938. It seems there was a pause at that time for a while while this happened prior to the advance on Taierzhang and the southern front seems to have stalled out till the big advance in May 1938.

What was the hold up for the Central China Army?

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Post by Volklin » 19 Mar 2006 00:32

The casualty ratio is insane, for every lost Japanese soldier, there were 3 lost Chinese soldiers and 9 lost Chinese civilians.

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Japanese forces in China

Post by Akira Takizawa » 19 Mar 2006 08:16

After the declaration of Prime Minister Konoe that Japan would not negociate with Chiang Kai-shek, the Japanese forces in China were reorganized to maintain the occupied territories in China. At that time, the GHQ at Tokyo had no intention to make a large offensive in China. However, generals in the front arbitrarily advanced their forces and caused the battle of Taierzhang, which led the offensive to Hsuchou after that.

Taki

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re: Japanese forces in China

Post by asiaticus » 20 Mar 2006 22:40

Ok, interesting. That make sense. So you are saying that the advance of the 10th and 5th Divisions was a private enterprise in a sense, that went wrong and sucked in the rest of the Japanese forces in consequence?

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Re: re: Japanese forces in China

Post by Akira Takizawa » 21 Mar 2006 02:24

asiaticus wrote:Ok, interesting. That make sense. So you are saying that the advance of the 10th and 5th Divisions was a private enterprise in a sense, that went wrong and sucked in the rest of the Japanese forces in consequence?


The 2nd Army commander Nishio said to Tokyo, "I only want to drive away the enemy before my eyes. It is not an operation to advance deep south." However, he advanced near to Hsuchou and caused the battle at Taierzhang.

Taki

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More about Japanese forces in North China Army 1938

Post by asiaticus » 21 Mar 2006 18:01

Taki thanks for the reply. Did this little adventure get General Nishio in trouble when it went wrong?

Also I have been confused about what happened prior to 10th Division attacking Taierzhang. Was it just the 10th Division that destroyed the Szechwan 122nd Division of 22nd Army at Tengxian? What then happened to that Chinese army did it withdraw southward or to the west.

Also what Japanese forces were then securing the long line of advance of the 10th and 5th Divisons to Taierzhang and Linyi? 2nd Army doesnt seem to have much secondary forces to secure that long line of supply.

- 2nd Army - Gen. Nishio
--5th Division - Gen. Seishiro Itagaki
---9th Infantry Brigade
----11th Infantry Regiment
----41st Infantry Regiment
---21st Infantry Brigade
----21st Infantry Regiment
----42nd Infantry Regiment
---5th Mountain Artillery Regiment
---5th Cavalry Regiment
---5th Engineer Regiment
---5th Transport Regiment

--10th Division - Gen Rinsuke Isoya
---8th Infantry Brigade
----39th Infantry Regiment
----40th Infantry Regiment
---33rd Infantry Brigade
----10th Infantry Regiment
----63rd Infantry Regiment
---10th Field Artillery Regiment
---10th Cavalry Regiment
---10th Engineer Regiment
---10th Transport Regiment

directly under 2nd Army:[3]
--6th Independent Machinegun Battalion
--10th Independent Machinegun Battalion
--10th Independent Light Armored Car Squadron
--12th Independent Light Armored Car Squadron
--2nd Field Heavy Artillery Regiment
--3rd Field Heavy Artillery Regiment

- 5th Independent Mixed Brigade - ? [3]
--16th Independent infantry battalion
--17th Independent infantry battalion
--18th Independent infantry battalion
--19th Independent infantry battalion
--20th Independent infantry battalion
--Independent artillery troops
--Independent labor troops
--Signal Communication Unit
Forming, on March 12 1938 enrolled in the North China front army order of battle, in March 30 the North China
front army deployed it to the 2nd Army.

[3] IJA in China orbat, 1937 to 1945

http://www.china-defense.com/forum/inde ... topic=2726
Posted: Oct 5 2002, 11:28 PM


Perhaps some of the units directly under North China Front Army itself did this?

North China Front army - Gen. ?

--16th Division -
---19th Infantry Brigade
----9th Infantry Regiment
----20th Infantry Regiment
---30th Infantry Brigade
----33rd Infantry Regiment
----38th Infantry Regiment
---22nd Field Artillery Regiment
---20th Cavalry Regiment
---16th Engineer Regiment
---16th Transport Regiment

--114th Division -Gen. ?
---127th Infantry Brigade
---- 66th Infantry Regiment
----115th Infantry Regiment
---128th Infantry Brigade
----102nd Infantry Regiment
----150th Infantry Regiment
---120th Field Artillery Regt
---118th Cavalry Regiment
---114th Engineer Regiment
---114th Transport Regiment

--China Garrison Mixed Brigade - Major Gen. Kawabe?
---Kawabe Brigade(China Stationed Infantry Brigade)- Major Gen. Kawabe?
---- 1st China Stationed Infantry Regiment
---- 2nd China Stationed Infantry Regiment
--- China Stationed Cavalry Unit
--- China Stationed Artillery Regiment
--- China Stationed Engineer Unit
--- China Stationed Tank Unit (17 tanks?)
--- China Stationed Signal Unit
--- Army Hospital

-6th Independent Infantry Brigade - Gen. ? [3]
--7th Independent infantry battalion
--8th Independent infantry battalion
--9th Independent infantry battalion
--10th Independent infantry battalion
--Independent artillery troops, the
--Independent labor troops, the
--Signal Communication Unit.


-3rd Infantry Brigade - Major Gen. Kazuo Isa /2nd Division *
-- 4th Infantry Regiment
--29th Infantry Regiment

-13th Infantry Brigade - Major Gen. Tadao Yoshizawa/7th Division *
--25th Infantry Regiment
--26th Infantry Regiment

-- 4th, 5th, 9th Independent Machinegun Battalions
-- 1st, 5th Independent Light Armored Car squadrons,
-- 2nd Tank Battalion - Colonel Imada
-- 1st independent mountain artillery regiment
-- 3rd independent mountain artillery regiment
-- 2nd field operation heavy artillery brigade
-- 5th Field operation heavy artillery regiment
-- 6th field operation heavy artillery regiment
-- 8th Independent field operation heavy artillery regiment
-- 3rd Heavy Artillery Battalion
-- 5th Heavy Artillery Battalion

* From North-China Expeditionary Army for May Hsuchow campaign. They were under the direct control of North-China Expeditionary Army. They returned to the Kwangtung Army after the battle.

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Re: More about Japanese forces in North China Army 1938

Post by Akira Takizawa » 22 Mar 2006 06:40

> Did this little adventure get General Nishio in trouble when it went wrong?

Yes, he did not expect it.

> Also I have been confused about what happened prior to 10th Division attacking Taierzhang. Was it just the 10th Division that destroyed the Szechwan 122nd Division of 22nd Army at Tengxian?

Yes, it was Seya detachment

> Also what Japanese forces were then securing the long line of advance of the 10th and 5th Divisons to Taierzhang and Linyi?

I don't know.

- 5th Independent Mixed Brigade - ? [3]

Lt. Gen. Masahisa Hata


North China Front army - Gen. ?

Terauchi

--16th Division -

Lt. Gen. Kesago Nakajima

--114th Division -Gen. ?

Lt. Gen. Shigeji Suematsu

--China Garrison Mixed Brigade - Major Gen. Kawabe?

No. Lt. Gen. Tomoyuki Yamashita

-6th Independent Infantry Brigade - Gen. ? [3]

It is a mistake of 3rd IMB.


Taki

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Re: More about Japanese forces in North China Army 1938

Post by asiaticus » 22 Mar 2006 19:52

Taki, thanks for the info on the unit and generals. I suspectied the 6th Brigade was some kind of error.

Do you know what those units (Divisions especially) directly under North China army were doing at the time of the Taierzhang / Linyi opperaion?

The movements from December crossing of the Yellow River up until the Taierzhang offensive are kind of obsure from what I have read.

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Re: More about Japanese forces in North China Army 1938

Post by Akira Takizawa » 24 Mar 2006 07:26

asiaticus wrote:Do you know what those units (Divisions especially) directly under North China army were doing at the time of the Taierzhang / Linyi opperaion?


16th Division guarded Gaoyi - Zhangde - Linquing area in the south of Hebei Province and 114th Division had just arrived from Central China.

Taki

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