Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

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gorskizdrug
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Re: Ustasha members with Chetniks or Cossacks?

Post by gorskizdrug » 20 Nov 2009 16:43

Junak1929 wrote:
If you are Croatian you should know all that, maybe cos you are not from Zagreb you dont know things, and you are looking at things from the different angle cos you are from the "islands" I supose. Nevertheless please dont push quarrels between us, lets focus on the real non sided history, I think that you should understand that we really need that!!!


I had to add in - that the underlined completely contradicts the bolded. I find a lot of patience for Croats from Croatia who are as quick to disregard me as I am them - it's a terrible complex which needs to stop. We can all learn from eachother - the problem is this form of childish dialogue which exists.


Regarding " bolded ": Majority of pre war Jews lived in Zagreb, and cos I live here, I had an opportunity for a more thorough research. And as I said many of them fortunately survived WWII.
Childish dialogue exists cos of childish disputes unfortunately!

Didov
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by Didov » 21 Jan 2010 16:22

gorskizdrug wrote:Chetnics were given orders from Royal Yugoslav Gouverment from London to wait, not to engage in bigger fightings with Germans ( " saving the Serbian blood " ), and on the local level to make ethnic cleansing of Croatians ( Chatolic, Muslim ) and the other non Serbian population.

Germans never gave NDH forces so much needed weapons and ammunition, NDH forces were always short of everything, the reason for that cos Hitler was afraid of arming Croatians, cos they could turn against him.

Yup. Hitler was so afraid of Croats that he once stated that if Corats rebel he would loose the dang war. Allies never took this statement seriously but eventually Titos (a Croat) partisans actually take down his "Third Reich". :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Junak1929
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by Junak1929 » 27 Jan 2010 21:27

Do you know anything ? Some of the most intense resistance was in Croatia during WW2, there were so many sides fighting and so many people switching over to the partizan side - often there was trouble for German, Croatian and Italian forces to fight against the guerrilla partizans, if the 250+ thousand Ustase & Domobrani for some reason switched sides, the Axis would have a Third southern front. Why do people post if they don't know what they're talking about.

Didov
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by Didov » 03 Feb 2010 15:38

you really believe that Croats were major problem for Nazis? Check again.

kiseli
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by kiseli » 03 Feb 2010 20:08

Image

from left to right; domobranski bojnik (croatian homeguard major) Emil Rataj, ustaški logornik (ustasha camp officer)Konstantin Urumović, četnički vojvoda (chetnik warlord )Uroš Drenović te ustaški kotarski predstojnik (ustasha district functionary ) Marko Jungić. picture is from april 1942.

Didov
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by Didov » 04 Feb 2010 11:21

Can you please provide us with the information about this picture : where its taken and what occasion. I will provide necessary info about this picture if needed.

kiseli
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by kiseli » 04 Feb 2010 12:35

Can you please provide us with the information about this picture : where its taken and what occasion. I will provide necessary info about this picture if needed.


varcar vakuf ,today mrkonjic grad (mrkonjic town), date was april 27, 1942, and special occasion was agreement between uros drenovic as commander of "Kocic" Chetnik Detachment and Tode Mitrovic as political representative of
chetnik organizations and above mentioned gentlemen as representative of pavelic forces. it was not isolated case.
In a nutshell the most important provisions stipulated by all agreements are as follows: The Chetnik detachments in Bosnia shall cease all hostilities against the armed forces and authorities of the Independent State of Croatia; the Chetnik detachments pledge themselves to wage armed struggle against the Partisans and shall obtain military and material assistance from the armed forces of the ISC to this end; the Chetniks recognize Hitler's puppet "Independent State of Croatia", as a sovereign state while proclaiming the Serbs in Bosnia subjects of the latter. The agreement provided the basis for large-scale joint action by Pavelic's and Chetnik forces in Bosnia, the course of which can be followed precisely from their copious mutual correspondence deposited in the Archives of the Institute for Military History. In the meantime, while carrying out the provisions of the treaties signed, the Chetnik detachments from Bosnia maintained continuous contact with the Headquarters of D. Mihailovic. The German Commands in the Independent State of Croatia were fully informed of these accords and approved of them. Moreover, the headquarters of the individual German units in the field came in touch with the Chetnik detachments and used them, in conjunction with Pavelic's forces, for armed combat against the Partisans.

Didov
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by Didov » 04 Feb 2010 15:44

In most part it is your conclusion.
There are two mostly used pictures of Chetniks with Croats (Ustasha and Domobran) and we see both of them here. Noo doubt so far that pictures are authentic and no doubt they made agreements between each other (between Chetniks and Domobrans).
In spring of 1942. Drenovic went to city of Banjaluka to witness a signing of agreements (I believe few of those agreements were made then) between Chetniks (Rade Radic) in Bosnia and Croat representatives. Agreements were made as a result of war between Chetniks and partisans. Until the spring of 1942. Chetniks and Partisans were together holding a line against Croats (Ustashas and Domobrans) but partisans decided it is their time to attack Chetniks as their ideological opponents. As soon as the war between them started the territory they were holding together was split. West from the line Kozara-Drvar was held by the partisans and east from that line held Chetniks. Chetniks definitely confirm their strategy against Croats in Jun 7 1942. Branislav Lazić (head of Bosnian Chetnik propaganda) said that attacks from partisans forced them to releaf the pressure from Croatian side thus lowering the pressure against Serbian civilians and that hey were not happy signing the document in which they recognize Independent state of Croatia who by the way didnt want to recognize Serbia. Chetniks believed that Croats will pay for their deed after the war and today is more important for Serbian civilians than a justice tomorow. Final result of those negotiations was that Chetniks recognize Croat independence and in return they will stop sending Serbian civilians to Jasenovac and other concentration camps. at that time Chetniks believed that the end of the war is near and that signing is pure formality since soon everything will be over. Croats on the other hand believed in German victory. New conference between Chetniks and Croats was held in July and Drenovic was appointed as an officer for croat-chetnik relations. He took that assignment and thats how those two pictures ended up here. He shared his beliefs openly with his combatants : Our relations with Croats are clear - until other fronts are strong we can not do anything because Germans will send their troops to help Croats. We mus be careful. I can not lie to people that someone will come and help us nor tell them that someone will send us something. I must count only on things we have. We must play this game until high command decide it is time for a new front to open and then ... "

kiseli
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by kiseli » 04 Feb 2010 16:18

Noo doubt so far that pictures are authentic and no doubt they made agreements between each other (between Chetniks and Domobrans).


it is agreement between chetniks and NDH state (not only domobrans)

Didov
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by Didov » 04 Feb 2010 22:02

it is agreement between chetniks and NDH state (not only domobrans)

I really cant say if those agreements were valid or not. JVuO chetniks were under direct command of King Petar II and Bosnian Chetniks got under Draja Mihailovic command not until autumn of 1942.

gorskizdrug
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by gorskizdrug » 07 Feb 2010 18:50

Didov wrote:In most part it is your conclusion.
There are two mostly used pictures of Chetniks with Croats (Ustasha and Domobran) and we see both of them here. Noo doubt so far that pictures are authentic and no doubt they made agreements between each other (between Chetniks and Domobrans).
In spring of 1942. Drenovic went to city of Banjaluka to witness a signing of agreements (I believe few of those agreements were made then) between Chetniks (Rade Radic) in Bosnia and Croat representatives. Agreements were made as a result of war between Chetniks and partisans. Until the spring of 1942. Chetniks and Partisans were together holding a line against Croats (Ustashas and Domobrans) but partisans decided it is their time to attack Chetniks as their ideological opponents. As soon as the war between them started the territory they were holding together was split. West from the line Kozara-Drvar was held by the partisans and east from that line held Chetniks. Chetniks definitely confirm their strategy against Croats in Jun 7 1942. Branislav Lazić (head of Bosnian Chetnik propaganda) said that attacks from partisans forced them to releaf the pressure from Croatian side thus lowering the pressure against Serbian civilians and that hey were not happy signing the document in which they recognize Independent state of Croatia who by the way didnt want to recognize Serbia. Chetniks believed that Croats will pay for their deed after the war and today is more important for Serbian civilians than a justice tomorow. Final result of those negotiations was that Chetniks recognize Croat independence and in return they will stop sending Serbian civilians to Jasenovac and other concentration camps. at that time Chetniks believed that the end of the war is near and that signing is pure formality since soon everything will be over. Croats on the other hand believed in German victory. New conference between Chetniks and Croats was held in July and Drenovic was appointed as an officer for croat-chetnik relations. He took that assignment and thats how those two pictures ended up here. He shared his beliefs openly with his combatants : Our relations with Croats are clear - until other fronts are strong we can not do anything because Germans will send their troops to help Croats. We mus be careful. I can not lie to people that someone will come and help us nor tell them that someone will send us something. I must count only on things we have. We must play this game until high command decide it is time for a new front to open and then ... "


Typical Chetnik policy in the WWII, waiting, squirming, back stabbing, without clear agenda and cause. The result is very known to all of us, their leader ended up not as a soldier and hero ( like in that funny American movie made during WWII ), he ended up like a criminal!!

gorskizdrug
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by gorskizdrug » 07 Feb 2010 20:01

kiseli wrote:Image

from left to right; domobranski bojnik (croatian homeguard major) Emil Rataj, ustaški logornik (ustasha camp officer)Konstantin Urumović, četnički vojvoda (chetnik warlord )Uroš Drenović te ustaški kotarski predstojnik (ustasha district functionary ) Marko Jungić. picture is from april 1942.



Ustaški logornik does not mean camp officer. In Croatian language logor means also a camp site, and in this particular sense it symbolize smaller territorial district in Ustasha terminology and by Ustasha Rules.

gorskizdrug
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by gorskizdrug » 07 Feb 2010 20:05

Didov wrote:
it is agreement between chetniks and NDH state (not only domobrans)

I really cant say if those agreements were valid or not. JVuO chetniks were under direct command of King Petar II and Bosnian Chetniks got under Draja Mihailovic command not until autumn of 1942.


Maybe they were under direct command of King Petar like in that song ( " telefonske žice bruje, Kralj nam Petar poručuje" - sorry guys I am not in the mood to translate this ). :lol:

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Junak1929
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by Junak1929 » 08 Feb 2010 16:10

kiseli wrote:
Can you please provide us with the information about this picture : where its taken and what occasion. I will provide necessary info about this picture if needed.


varcar vakuf ,today mrkonjic grad (mrkonjic town), date was april 27, 1942, and special occasion was agreement between uros drenovic as commander of "Kocic" Chetnik Detachment and Tode Mitrovic as political representative of
chetnik organizations and above mentioned gentlemen as representative of pavelic forces. it was not isolated case.
In a nutshell the most important provisions stipulated by all agreements are as follows: The Chetnik detachments in Bosnia shall cease all hostilities against the armed forces and authorities of the Independent State of Croatia; the Chetnik detachments pledge themselves to wage armed struggle against the Partisans and shall obtain military and material assistance from the armed forces of the ISC to this end; the Chetniks recognize Hitler's puppet "Independent State of Croatia", as a sovereign state while proclaiming the Serbs in Bosnia subjects of the latter. The agreement provided the basis for large-scale joint action by Pavelic's and Chetnik forces in Bosnia, the course of which can be followed precisely from their copious mutual correspondence deposited in the Archives of the Institute for Military History. In the meantime, while carrying out the provisions of the treaties signed, the Chetnik detachments from Bosnia maintained continuous contact with the Headquarters of D. Mihailovic. The German Commands in the Independent State of Croatia were fully informed of these accords and approved of them. Moreover, the headquarters of the individual German units in the field came in touch with the Chetnik detachments and used them, in conjunction with Pavelic's forces, for armed combat against the Partisans.



:lol: Are you one of the Goldstiens ? This is hilarious !

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Junak1929
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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

Post by Junak1929 » 08 Feb 2010 16:12

A reminder to "kiseli", please use references - source your material, especially in regards to alleged agreements that no one knows anything about. You seem to plagiarize a lot, unless ofcourse, you're one of the Goldstiens.

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