TOLDI TANKS

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YAN
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TOLDI TANKS

Post by YAN » 27 Mar 2007 15:42

Hi, I was going through my Hungarian data and I was checking out the AFV section to find that it was not complete, I also noticed that some of my data may be wrong.
My first section on the Toldi tanks had =

Toldi 38.M MK I 1939 20mm Gun
Toldi 38.M MK II 1942 20mm Gun
Toldi 42.M MK IIa 1943 40mm Gun
Toldi ?.M MK III 19?? 40mm Gun

Was the Toldi ever equipped with a 37mm Gun ?.
Did the MK I & II have the same ammo storage ?.
Did the MK IIa & MK III also have the same ammo storage ?.
What was the cross country speed of the Toldi ?.

I hope someone can help me,

Thanks Yan.

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MarkoZ
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Post by MarkoZ » 27 Mar 2007 16:47

There is a picture of a Toldi with 40mm gun on Bill Kirks 'Tanks' website in the Hungary section

YAN
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Post by YAN » 28 Mar 2007 10:35

Thanks MarkZ, Yan.

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CB1
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Toldi

Post by CB1 » 28 Mar 2007 10:44

Hi,

This comes from here: http://gamma21.freeweb.hu/mtoldi.html and Lóránd Dombrády's "A magyar hadigazdaság a második világháború idején" /Hungarian War Industry in WW2/

Ammo: 38M (no dot between) Toldi was equipped with the 20mm 36M nehézpuska (ie. "heavy rifle" / AT rifle, a Solothurn design). The magazine had to be modified. The original contained 5 rounds of 20mm ammo but it could not fit into the fighting compartment of the Toldi so Danuvia produced a 4-round mag instead. Toldi had a belt-fed 8mm 34/37M Gebauer MG. The only trouble was that the Gebauer was magazine-fed so it also had to be modified. But until that time the mag-fed gun had to be installed somehow. The 25-round mag was to big for the compartment (it hit the ceiling) so either the ceiling had to be cut out or the mag-size (ie. number of rounds) reduced. The ceiling was cut out and covered with a cupola until the belt-fed gun is installed. All in all, it is possible that Toldis had indeed different ammo storage.

Nomenclature: Toldis ordered in 1939 (80 pieces) were named 38M Toldi I, vehicles of the second batch (110 pieces) ordered in 1940 were named Toldi II. Difference between the two batches is in the suspension (German <torsion springs> were found to be inadequate, were replaced with stronger Hungarian ones). These batches were renamed Toldi A20 and Toldi B20 respectively in 1943. Toldis were deployed to the Eastern Front during Barbarossa and by NOV41 the Hungarian Mobile Corps lost about 80 percent of its Toldis. It was fast but both its armor and gun too light so the third batch (220 pieces) was cancelled in 1941. The tank was redesigned but its weak engine and suspension system had not allowed much of an improvement. Some add-on armor was introduced but it was up to the 40mm 37M tank gun (originally developed for the abortive V4 tank project) to improve the "active defence". 80 of the existing Toldis were selected for this conversion and these vehicles were renamed 42M Toldi II.A (later Toldi B40). Despite these improvements the Toldi was obsolete and the up-armored and up-gunned B40s only made it to the recon platoons of the tank battalions. Toldi III (or Toldi C) was the pre-war dream of the top brass came true. A fully Hungarian tank to the last bolt. Strengthened structure, up-armored, Gebauer switched to 8mm 34/40M belt-fed MG etc. Although still obsolete, 70 pieces were ordered in 1943, later reduced to 12 and postponed after the conversion of B20s to B40s (ie. cancelled).

37mm gun: no, it was never armed with it. As far as I know the original decision was about equipping the 20mm AT rifle or the 40mm tank gun. Top brass decided that 20mm would do until Danuvia developed a new 25mm HMG for the Toldi. This 25mm gun project was most likely abandoned after the poor performance of the 20mm Solothurn became obvious.

Bye,
Krisz

YAN
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Post by YAN » 29 Mar 2007 12:31

Thanks CB1, do you know what the complete armour was on the Csaba armoured car. Yan.

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CB1
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39M

Post by CB1 » 29 Mar 2007 16:28

Hi,

What I know about the armor...oh, sorry...armour of the Csaba is quite basic: it was 9-13mm thin. The original insignia was on the front plate: a big cross with plenty of white in it. It tended to attract the sight of AT gunners. There are photos of the Yugoslavian campaign with hits in the middle of the cross. Well, those holes do not seem to be anything more than 20mm. No wonder drivers were quite nervous to sit just behind that cross...

But, if I were you I would contact Mr Andrew Telford (he is a member of this forum). He is quite knowledgeable about these things.

Bye,
Krisz

YAN
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Post by YAN » 30 Mar 2007 13:18

Thanks Krisz, So I reckon that if the maximum armour is 13mm and the minimum is 9mm, it should be like this =

Gun mantle: 13mm
Turret front: 13mm
Turret sides: 19mm
Turret rear: 9mm
Turret top: 9mm
Hull front: 13mm
Hull sides: 9mm
Hull rear: 9mm
Hull top: 9mm
Hull bottom: 9mm

Thanks all I can come up with, and I would also like to figure out its cross country speed too.
Thanks Yan.

YAN
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Post by YAN » 30 Mar 2007 20:42

Andrew I have tried to contact you via the link you left me, so I sent you a reply, but it came up with an error report, I dont know what went wrong its proberbly from my end.
I will leave a message for you on this forum next week if I hear nothing.
Many thanks Yan.

YAN
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Post by YAN » 02 Apr 2007 20:21

Andrew I have tried again but to no avail,
How much do you know about the Cross Country speed of Hungarian AFVs,
And what was the maximum road speed of the Nimrod, I have seen two different ones (35 kph & 50 kph).
Thanks Yan.

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