How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today.
Yodasgrandad
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How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby Yodasgrandad » 13 Aug 2017 01:38

What would the Germans need to win the Battle of The Bulge?

Technology that would make the Allies equipment/aircraft useless?

More troops or tanks?

maltesefalcon
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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby maltesefalcon » 13 Aug 2017 03:06

Took me about ten seconds to find three thoroughly discussed threads on this exact topic. There should be quite a few more. Suggest perhaps do a quick search and join in the one that fits best?

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby Von Schadewald » 13 Aug 2017 03:15

The Germans attacked with 300,000 men and 600 tanks. They would need 600,000 men and 1200 tanks with fuel reserves all the way, together with all of Bodenplatte's 1000 aircraft giving them air cover when the weather cleared, plus every V1 & V2 that was being fired at the UK being re-aimed at Antwerp to cause panic, to have even a chance of reaching Antwerp, let alone holding it.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby T. A. Gardner » 13 Aug 2017 04:05

They'd also need like 10 times the motor vehicles they had, not to mention artillery, and other supporting arms. 2nd Panzer had a battalion of "panzergrenadier" mounted on bicycles for Christ's sake! Lehr division was forced to use a couple of panzerjager battalions to give it some tanks. The VG divisions were generally pathetic shells of "real" infantry divisions.

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby jesk » 14 Aug 2017 01:02

Germany had about 300 divisions in Europe, 30 (10%) of them attacked the bulge. I think this is not serious action on the part of the Germans. They played a giveaway.

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby jesk » 15 Aug 2017 20:21

There were tactical mistakes. Hitler has forbidden to attack to the 12th SS corps and the 6th tank army to strengthen blow broken through defense 5th tank. On the map the deep breakthrough of the 5th tank army is visible. Hitler has forbidden to enter 6th tank into break.

Image

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby jesk » 15 Aug 2017 20:35

It is amusing, 90% of participants of forums aren't interesting combat operations. Discuss a ratio of resources, reserves of fuel and the unions of the countries more willingly. SU+Germany = a victory over Britain?

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Kingfish
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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby Kingfish » 16 Aug 2017 00:24

jesk wrote:There were tactical mistakes. Hitler has forbidden to attack to the 12th SS corps and the 6th tank army to strengthen blow broken through defense 5th tank. On the map the deep breakthrough of the 5th tank army is visible. Hitler has forbidden to enter 6th tank into break.

Image


What do you mean by "forbidden"?
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby jesk » 20 Aug 2017 19:32

Generals wanted to change the direction of attack of the 6th tank army from mountains and the woods of Ardennes to the flat area. To connect the 15th army to battle. Hitler has forbidden to strike blow in the allocated area. It is more effective to use tanks in the field, than in the mountains covered with the woods.

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Aber
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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby Aber » 20 Aug 2017 21:35

jesk wrote:There were tactical mistakes. Hitler has forbidden to attack to the 12th SS corps and the 6th tank army to strengthen blow broken through defense 5th tank. On the map the deep breakthrough of the 5th tank army is visible. Hitler has forbidden to enter 6th tank into break.

Image


The planned centreline of the attack (and boundary between 5th and 6th tank armies) ran from Huy on the Meuse, northwest to Antwerp.

The Allies were not very worried about 5th army, as it had further to travel and so there was time to deploy forces to stop it crossing the Meuse. The 6th army was the main thrust as it started closer to the target of Antwerp and the Meuse. Stopping this was seen as critical and the Allies stopped it taking the critical ridge line.

Diverting the 6th army south takes it away from its main objective, gives it further to travel with limited fuel, and creates a traffic jam trying to move too many units in a area without good roads.

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby jesk » 20 Aug 2017 21:49

Aber wrote: Stopping this was seen as critical and the Allies stopped it taking the critical ridge line.

What for the critical ridge line?

Diverting the 6th army south takes it away from its main objective, gives it further to travel with limited fuel, and creates a traffic jam trying to move too many units in a area without good roads.


I was wrong reading the source. It was planned to postpone the main attack of the 6th Panzer Army north of the Ardennes. In the previous post wrote about this.

http://militera.lib.ru/h/fatalerror/12.html

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby Richard Anderson » 20 Aug 2017 22:22

jesk wrote:Germany had about 300 divisions in Europe, 30 (10%) of them attacked the bulge. I think this is not serious action on the part of the Germans. They played a giveaway.


No, 277 divisions active, of which 76 were in the West, 25 in Italy, 135 in the East, 22 in the Balkans, 17 in Norway, and 2 in Germany. Roughly 29 "divisions" (28 plus three maneuver brigades) were earmarked for the Ardennes, albeit not all were committed. So roughly 37% of the divisions and roughly all :P of the operational armor in Ob. West at the time.

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby jesk » 20 Aug 2017 22:34

Richard Anderson wrote:
jesk wrote:Germany had about 300 divisions in Europe, 30 (10%) of them attacked the bulge. I think this is not serious action on the part of the Germans. They played a giveaway.


No, 277 divisions active, of which 76 were in the West, 25 in Italy, 135 in the East, 22 in the Balkans, 17 in Norway, and 2 in Germany. Roughly 29 "divisions" (28 plus three maneuver brigades) were earmarked for the Ardennes, albeit not all were committed. So roughly 37% of the divisions and roughly all :P of the operational armor in Ob. West at the time.


For December 16 in Europe there were 45 American divisions. Hitler watched that pressure upon them wasn't too big. :)

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby Richard Anderson » 20 Aug 2017 23:13

jesk wrote:For December 16 in Europe there were 45 American divisions. Hitler watched that pressure upon them wasn't too big. :)


Umm, I think you are missing something...British, Canadians, French, plus minor contingents :D Anyway, my quick count is 47 American divisions arrived in the ETOUSA by 16 December and the infantry regiments of three divisions arrived ahead of the division HQ in order to relieve the infantry shortage.

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Re: How Germany can win Battle of The Bulge?

Postby jesk » 20 Aug 2017 23:24

infantry shortage... yes :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_In ... _Surrender

An occupying army of around 400,000 well-equipped German troops remained in Norway, under the command of General Franz Böhme, who was contacted by the German Minister in Sweden early on 6 May, to determine whether a further partial capitulation might be arranged for his forces with neutral Sweden acting as an intermediary, but he was unwilling to comply with anything other than a general surrender order from the German High Command.


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