How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

[Michael Kenny]

which historians claim that the German army was desperately out of radios?

Who mentioned radios?

https://youtu.be/aoWKDfhkPLo?t=45s

[jesk]

Mobility comers into its own when the enemy line is broken. In the static phase June-July it did not come into the equation. In August it was overwhelmingly decisive in that Allied advance Units were deep into the German rear and destroying the majority of German transport both wheeled and horse. They not only 'ran rings' they performed 'doughnuts'!

in September especially many prisoners were

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pr ... est_Europe

After the D-Day landings German surrenders initially came quite slowly. By June 9 only 4,000 prisoners had been taken, increasing to 15,000 by June 18. The total for June was 47,000, dropping to 36,000 in July; 135,000 were taken in the month subsequent to July 25. August’s total was 150,000. The total number of prisoners attributed to the Normandy campaign was 200,000.
With the successful invasion of the south of France on August 15 and the link-up of the US 7th Army from the south and the US 3rd Army from the north on September 11, all the German troops remaining in central and west France were cut off. As a result, and also including the German troops who surrendered in the hot pursuit to the northern border from Normandy, 344,000 German soldiers surrendered to the western allies in September. This was one of the largest German losses in a single month of the war so far.

[Richard Anderson]

Yet since they lacked the oil further increases in production would be counter productive.

And yet they wanted to increase production...as witness the failed production goals. Perhaps they weren't thinking in terms of chicken and egg arguments?

Anyway, German truck production in WW2 was actually very high considering that their motor vehicle industry in 1938 produced only 350,000 vehicles while US produced 4.5 million and UK over 400,000

Uh, no, sorry, but that is incorrect and you are mixing terms and numbers again. German "truck" (lorry) production in 1938 was 87,661, which represented a tripling from 1934's 28,452. The average production from 1939-1944 was 84,392 per year. German "auto" (passenger car) production in 1938 was 289,108, just doubling 1934's 144,542. The average production 1939-1944 was 77,551. The third major component was motorcycle manufacture, which was 199,299 in 1938. US automobile production in 1938 was 1,697,331.

The first two years were obviously not a "long descent into an abyss of defeat" since they conquered most of Europe during this period. Their first major setback was in late 1941. They had lost the war in 1943 because they were unable to get the strategic innitiative as Kursk showed they were unable to launch an strategic offensive.

Uh, no, they lost the strategic initiative in December 1941.

What were the requirements? All panzer divisions to have full complement of tanks according to their TO?

Why yes, that is why they appear in the KAN/KsTN as Sollstaerke or "required strength".

That's one point in time omly.

Two actually. Do you require more to prove the point already made? At no point after c. 1942 did the German Ist match Soll.

Ibis and Gorke claimed that.

If they did could you point out the passages...perhaps by searching for some of the key words "magical wand whose spell completely immobilized the entire Wehrmacht and made it ineffective"? Funny, I don't seem to find any such, except in that phrase you just wrote.

もちろん。

So in Japanese you know that you are misstating figures, but in English you don't. How droll.

[Richard Anderson]

After the D-Day landings German surrenders initially came quite slowly. By June 9 only 4,000 prisoners had been taken, increasing to 15,000 by June 18. The total for June was 47,000, dropping to 36,000 in July; 135,000 were taken in the month subsequent to July 25. August’s total was 150,000. The total number of prisoners attributed to the Normandy campaign was 200,000.
With the successful invasion of the south of France on August 15 and the link-up of the US 7th Army from the south and the US 3rd Army from the north on September 11, all the German troops remaining in central and west France were cut off. As a result, and also including the German troops who surrendered in the hot pursuit to the northern border from Normandy, 344,000 German soldiers surrendered to the western allies in September. This was one of the largest German losses in a single month of the war so far.

Reliance on Wiki is as problematic as relying on a journalist for your history.

NARA RG 331, SHAEF General Staff, G-1 Administrative Section Decimal File 383.6/1, Daily POW Reports:

June - 29,700
July - 52,820
August - 149,003
Total - 231,253

I have the actual September 1944-May 1945 figures if you are interested.

[jesk]

Reliance on Wiki is as problematic as relying on a journalist for your history.

NARA RG 331, SHAEF General Staff, G-1 Administrative Section Decimal File 383.6/1, Daily POW Reports:

June - 29,700
July - 52,820
August - 149,003
Total - 231,253

I have the actual September 1944-May 1945 figures if you are interested.

Spread data. Numbers of prisoners don't confirm crucial importance of the Soviet-German front. As some consider also in this topic.

[The Ibis]

Ibis and Gorke claimed that.

No, we didn't.

[T. A. Gardner]

which historians claim that the German army was desperately out of radios?

Who mentioned radios?

https://youtu.be/aoWKDfhkPLo?t=45s

That'd be me. The Germans were short on communications equipment. Their industry was very dependent on French, and particularly Dutch (the Philips corporation) for tubes and components and even then they couldn't get enough. After the discovery of the cavity magnetron from a British bomber (Rotterdam), the Germans relied heavily on captured units to produce millimeter wave radar sets because they didn't have the means to mass produce the large natural magnets necessary for the magnetrons.

US and British companies all had radios... note the s on that... assigned as part of their equipment. In German infantry formations battalion held the radios and assigned them on an "as needed" basis to companies. But, infantry companies rarely had one.

It's that simple. The Germans simply lacked the capacity to produce electronics on the scale the Allies did.

[Richard Anderson]

Spread data. Numbers of prisoners don't confirm crucial importance of the Soviet-German front. As some consider also in this topic.

No, documentary data. As in, from an original document recording the data.

So are you now saying the German prisoners captured numbers don't confirm it's importance? Because I never said a thing about it.

[Guaporense]

The question about the production of locomotives is a wrong one : the production increased, but not enough,which means that the Germans failed here also :production of steam locs

Hum, my data is different.

Here is locomotive production from 1940 to 1944:

Germany ---- 14,981
USSR --------- 2,258
UK ------------ 3,110
US ------------ 5,169 (for 42-44 only)

Source: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=207887&hilit=locomotive+production, viewtopic.php?p=1984223#p1984223

Locomotives were the most important transportation machine for the war effort. They were more important than aircraft or tanks, because they provided the armies with it's logistical supply. The UK and US didn't need to build many locomotives because they didn't fight in large scale ground combat and substituted (inefficient) trucks for locomotives while the USSR just survived on their initial stock of locomotives.

Also, here is data for artillery ammunition production from 1940 to 1944, by projectile weight, metric tons, only projectiles over 75 mm, not including mortars:

Germany ----- 4,671,975
USSR --------- 2,193,497
USA ----------- 2,705,169 (includes projectiles under 75 mm)
UK ------------ 1,078,148

Methodology for this estimate: I multiplied the weight of shells of specific types of ammunition, German data came from a website that was taken down now while Soviet data is courtesy of Art, US data comes from a reference I got from Rich and UK data is from the British report on the strategic survey unit, but I multiplied the number of shells by the average German weight to get an estimate.

By the way, in WW1 the weight of ammunition production was much larger than in WW2. The UK alone produce 4 times more arty ammo in WW1 and Germany produced a little bit more than in WW2. Germany was the largest ammunition producer in WW2 because the WAllies focused most of their resources on the navy and airforce while the USSR lacked the steel and explosives to produce more ammunition.

German arty ammunition production and consumption, by projectile weight:

---------------------- 1942 ------------- 1943 -------------- 1944
production ------- 703,378 ---------- 1,256,731 ------ 1,493,126
consumption ----- 673,265 ---------- 1,085,221 ------ 1,441,027

However, production data doesn't include AA. Data for consumption from: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads ... w2.308559/

Here is WW1 artillery ammunition production by projectile weight:

UK --------- 4,163,460
Canada --- 1,205,138
Russia ---- 800,266

All of combatant countries, assuming average projectile weight was the average of UK, Canada and Russia:

Arty ammo output of Germany, Austria-Hungary, Italy, UK, Canada, France, Russia and US from 1914 to 1918:

22,192,656 metric tons compared to 10,648,789 metric tons for WW2 output of Germany, UK, US and USSR.

Germany's main mistake in WW2 was to not ramp up production of ammunition in 1941 in preparation for the failure of Barbarossa.

The plan was to build in 42 and 43 15000 locs.

Source for "the plan"?

[Guaporense]

The Allies were fully motorized and didnt run rings around the horse drawn German army.

Mobility comers into its own when the enemy line is broken. In the static phase June-July it did not come into the equation. In August it was overwhelmingly decisive in that Allied advance Units were deep into the German rear and destroying the majority of German transport both wheeled and horse. They not only 'ran rings' they performed 'doughnuts'!

With a 3 to 1 numerical advantage you could perform doughnuts without motorization. The Germans easily encircle destroyed the Yugoslavian army without being fully motorized (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Yugoslavia). Or the Soviets did the same with the Japanese army. Or the Germans did the same with the Red Army in 1941, and they were not fully motorized. The WAllies, being fully motorized and outnumbering the Germans 3 to 1, plus having complete aerial supremacy failed to encircle the horse drawn German army in 1944.

Also your ethnocentric brain might forget that the WAllies did not encircle the German armies in the Western front in 1944. They failed to complete the encirclement in the falaise pocket, for instance.

[Michael Kenny]

the WAllies did not encircle the German armies in the Western front. They failed to complete the encirclement in the falaise pocket, for instance.

Ah the old chestnut where in every pocket the Germans 'encircled' it is assumed every single soldier was captured with none escaping.
These same blinkered people believe that unless a German Unit is captured to the last man then the Allied Army that cornered them was defeated.

[j keenan]

Also your ethnocentric brain might forget that the WAllies did not encircle the German armies in the Western front. They failed to complete the encirclement in the falaise pocket, for instance.

Why did Model commit suicide ?

[Gorque]

Ibis and Gorke claimed that.

No, we didn't.

Hi Ibis:

Actually it was Guaporense that posted those very words on 8-22-2017 @ 15:09 my time that he is now trying to foist upon us.

Nobody has ever claimed that airpower was completely useless. Just that it wasn't the magical wand whose spell completely immobilized the entire Wehrmacht and made it ineffective.

I myself posted about Dupuy's conclusion that airpower was decisive in Italy, when the Allied superiority on the ground wasn't large enough to alone win most offensive engagements. Although I don't think it was decisive in the Western front because in that front the Allies had a much higher degree of numerical superiority and hence German tactical proeficiency wasn't remotely enough to compensate: they had 1.26 times the effectiveness but were outnumbered around 2.5 to 1 over the entire Western front which meant that victory was impossible.

[jesk]

Spread data. Numbers of prisoners don't confirm crucial importance of the Soviet-German front. As some consider also in this topic.

No, documentary data. As in, from an original document recording the data.

So are you now saying the German prisoners captured numbers don't confirm it's importance? Because I never said a thing about it.

I spoke about opinion, popular in Russia: we have crushed Wehrmacht, allies aircraft. The number of the Germans taken prisoner in the West before capitulation don't confirm so easily mental thesis.

Spread data - such translation, I wanted to tell - write figures of prisoners on months, it is interesting. Allies until the end of April, 1945 have captivated 3 million Germans, the Russian 800 thousand.

[BDV]

Advances in ergonomics, production coordination, and materiel distribution do count as technological advances?

Of course.

In that case, coming up with some version of what came to be known as the Toyota production system/just-in-time delivery could have increased their industrial production.

Second, soviets had a quality control system where production inspekteurs individually marked inspected parts using personalized ink stamps, thus allowing defective products to be traced to the inspekteurs who failed to identify them...