"Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby wm » 24 Aug 2016 21:28

thaddeus_c wrote:is there any indication Germany tried to gain Memel/Klaipeda to swap with Poland?

Germany rejected that idea, it wasn't good enough.

BDV wrote:
Futurist wrote:Can't such international conventions be broken/violated by one of the parties, though?

Only with serious/severe consequences


So I suppose the Treaty of Versailles is not a good example...

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby BDV » 24 Aug 2016 22:49

wm wrote:"Futurist": Can't such international conventions be broken/violated by one of the parties, though?
BDV: Only with serious/severe consequences

So I suppose the Treaty of Versailles is not a good example...




As I see it, consequences for Germany and deutsch people were plenty serious.
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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby thaddeus_c » 25 Aug 2016 00:55

wm wrote:
thaddeus_c wrote:is there any indication Germany tried to gain Memel/Klaipeda to swap with Poland?

Germany rejected that idea, it wasn't good enough.


good enough for Germany? or was that typo and you meant Poland?

was Germany wanting Memel AND Danzig and extra-territorial highway?

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby wm » 25 Aug 2016 06:58

It wasn't good enough because in the twenties the Germans wanted the Corridor, Danzig, Upper Silesia, parts of Central Silesia, Memel for themselves. For this they were prepared to offer a free port in Danzig, economic facilities in Stettin and Konigsberg and nothing more.
So they considered that "swapping idea" too modest and not worthy to bother with. For this reason Konstantin von Neurath personally rejected it in 1933.


BDV wrote:As I see it, consequences for Germany and deutsch people were plenty serious.


Or rather the consequences of losing the war were plenty serious. As they say: play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby wm » 14 Sep 2016 12:48

GregSingh wrote:Just Google map of Poland from 1772 to see what I mean. Corridor was not invented in 1919, that's my point.

Even more the map shows both corridors existed at that time, and both were Polish:
pol-part.gif


it should be added some proposed to recreate the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, to avoid the obvious problem that the second corridor was actually a part of Lithuania, and a war was needed to change that.
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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby BDV » 14 Sep 2016 14:06

wm wrote:Even more the map shows both corridors existed at that time, and both were Polish:


No, the map shows no such thing. The map shows that these territories were under the rule of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The Corridor ain't "polish" even after 100 years of forced population exchanges and French style policies of forced assimilation.



a war was needed


How delightfully impersonal and nonjudgmental. What is good for deutsch goose appears not fit for the polskie gander.
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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby wm » 14 Sep 2016 14:47

The Poles didn't want any additional corridors or corridor swaps, it was invariably French, Italian and others ideas.

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth came into being after a Polish queen chose as her co-ruler a Lithuanian duke. For this he had to shed most of his Lithuanian customs.
This is why today's Poland is the direct descendant of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby BDV » 14 Sep 2016 15:42

wm wrote:This is why today's Poland is the direct descendant of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.


I'm sure Lithuania/Lithuanians see this differently.

In any case it has little bearing on the original question and the creation of ongoing friction issues between Poland and Germany by US et Co, during the aftermath of WWI and imperial disintegration in Central and Eastern Europe.
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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby Futurist » 15 Apr 2018 22:47

BDV wrote:
pugsville wrote:Relying on some other nation being motivated to step in, like international treaties helped Ethiopia, or China, or that France and England were so keen to help Czechoslovakia or Poland?


Indeed, why create extra friction when it only increases the chance you'll have to step in? Unless having a permanent friction point in order to provide an excuse to step in is the goal.

As to a country's major river flowing out to sea through another country, we have the Meuse, Rhine, and Colorado river as easy examples of major rivers that exit through a different country than that of origin. Not to mention Saint Lawrence, which drains the major agro-industrial area of the US (Great Lakes) and Danube that drains all of the Central Europe through Romania.

Poland would have had also the Grodno river port on Nemunas for alternative exit, and access to Tisa and Pruth for exit to Danube, and access to Dniester for exit to Black Sea. So no, the Corridor was nonsense.

You appear to be forgetting that pro-Polish parties won a majority of the vote in the northern part of the Polish Corridor (the part with access to the sea) in every German Reichstag election between 1871 and 1912, though. For instance, here are the results of the 1912 German Reichstag elections:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 912_en.png

Image

Also, please take a look at this map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... f_1910.jpg

Image

Indeed, even if Germany would have demanded a land connection between East Prussia and the rest of Germany (through Bromberg and Thorn), Poland would have still had very legitimate grounds to demand the northern part of the Polish Corridor.

In fact, I wonder if Germany would have been less offended had it received Danzig and a land bridge between East Prussia and the rest of Germany but if Poland would have retained the northern part of the Polish Corridor and had an extraterritorial road or tunnel or two to connect the northern part of the Polish Corridor with the rest of Poland.

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Re: "Polish corridor" between Lithunia and Germany

Postby Futurist » 15 Apr 2018 22:50

wm wrote:
GregSingh wrote:Just Google map of Poland from 1772 to see what I mean. Corridor was not invented in 1919, that's my point.

Even more the map shows both corridors existed at that time, and both were Polish:
pol-part.gif

it should be added some proposed to recreate the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, to avoid the obvious problem that the second corridor was actually a part of Lithuania, and a war was needed to change that.

Yeah, the Polish Corridor certainly has a very long history. :)

That said, though, it's interesting that Napoleon didn't re-create the Polish Corridor when he created the Grand Duchy of Warsaw.


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